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Copy of signed loan contract

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Copy of signed loan contract

Post by tattyboggle on Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:12 pm

On the original website GOODF I asked if the banks had ever produced the requested documents. the reply was a short no!
I have recently been sent a photocopy from a DCA of the original loan signed.
Do they have to produce the original signed doc or is a photocopy going to cut it in court?

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Re: Copy of signed loan contract

Post by Waffle on Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:17 pm

That would cut it, but how sure are you its a copy of the original. It is no secret that they cut and paste signatures and manufacture agreements to create one that could be perceived as the original.

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Re: Copy of signed loan contract

Post by tattyboggle on Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:21 am

Hence the question, the entire process fails if photocopied documents are used as proof, I was under the impression only signed original documents can be used in court proceedings. If not we could all join in with the Photoshopping game of making up documents.
Any other forum members come across this situation?

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Re: Copy of signed loan contract

Post by Waffle on Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:59 am

Thats the case if its pre 2007, you need a copy of the original, if the agreement is after 2007 it can be re-contituated.

Yes I believe I have and am trying to figure out a way to prove they have fraudulently created a document and claimed its the original, not straight forwards but a SAR has provided some backup....

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Re: Copy of signed loan contract

Post by Ausk on Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:05 am

I think the plan is a world where business, big busienss in particular, is allowed to photoshop original documents relating to the masses into existance but the masses will not be permitted to do likewise.

Your job, when in court, is cast doubt on any document they tender as evidence.

To do this, ask this question:

"Can you prove to this court, with objective evidence, that this document has not been forged in any way"?

What plausible answers are there to this question?

BTW, when in court over parking, speeding fines etc always frame your questions like this? Its how lawyers do it.

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Re: Copy of signed loan contract

Post by Kestrel on Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:02 am

I understand that the new protocols coming out for debt collection in October had originally included the proposal that the 'original' must be produced but was dropped as the DCA's complained it would be difficult for them to do so - everything is geared towards these thieving bastards.

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Re: Copy of signed loan contract

Post by Tiggy on Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:31 pm

Anyone in receipt of what they allege is the original agreement needs to go through it with a fine tooth comb, looking for:

1. Does it contain all the prescribed terms,

2. Could it have been doctored, so look at addresses, telephone numbers, interest rates, charges etc. are they all accurate for the time frame you supposedly agreed to it (ie was the particular interest rate or charge in place at the time).

It's not enough to say 'I don't believe that is my agreement' or 'the agreement is unenforceable' you have to say why you believe that and it MUST be listed in your defence should they commence proceedings, so put the work in now.

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Re: Copy of signed loan contract

Post by Jinxer on Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:49 pm

Would it be out of order asking them to prove how they paid the money to you. I mean with identity theft and all that and if you genuinely couldn't remember signing a loan agreement, would they not have to prove somehow what bank account they deposited the money into or what account the cheque was cashed in.

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Re: Copy of signed loan contract

Post by Tiggy on Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:05 pm

Jinxer wrote:Would it be out of order asking them to prove how they paid the money to you. I mean with identity theft and all that and if you genuinely couldn't remember signing a loan agreement, would they not have to prove somehow what bank account they deposited the money into or what account the cheque was cashed in.

You can basically, ask for any information as long as it's related to the alleged debt and 'proportionate' (if it came to it, it would be upto a Judge to decide what is proportionate or not).

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Re: Copy of signed loan contract

Post by Whymeok on Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:38 pm

i read the claim terms by mobile phone company last night, it shows both for new offer, tablet and extra data on phoen, but the sold debt claim to dca, only claims for mobile never had copy of new contract terms , where clause 11.b, if ie, price rise too, then what agreed in 18 mths offer contract, i right to cancel in 30 days in wrtting, i did,

yet dca, claims i had benfit use of serivces till serivce was cut off, i was paying up till i put account into dispute, so, oc sold claim breach of contract sum to dca, now , i to give up pay up i take it then?

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Re: Copy of signed loan contract

Post by petesomething on Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:37 pm

HI tattyboggle

Yes it can be a photocopy but it must be a true copy , can you read it, if not its not true copy, most of the time they never give you what you ask for,
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Re: Copy of signed loan contract

Post by tattyboggle on Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:54 pm

To clarify the process of the 3 letters and quote the relevant paragraph of requests.
'Please provide verification of your claim, by providing me with true and certified copies (Not photocopies) of the Deed of Assignment (NOT Notice of Assignment) and Deed of Novation. Please also provide me with the name of the individual who is the duly authorised representative from your company, who has seen the Original Note and is certifying these assignments as certified copies and that your company now has the Original Note (Credit Agreement) under penalty of perjury and with unlimited liability and confirm that the Note has never been sold prior to your company purchasing this account. Please also confirm the name of the individual who is the duly authorised representative from your company, who has carried out due diligence under The Money Laundering Regulations 2007 and what actions s/he has taken in relation to this account.

Could you clarify the difference between
Deed of Assignment
Notice of Assignment
Deed of Novation

Considering the above paragraph requests, all that has been produced is a photocopy of an agreement signed.
No mention of seeing an original note, no certification that it is a copy of an original and no comments on the sale of alleged loan or name of the individual who is the duly authorised representative from your company, who has carried out due diligence under The Money Laundering Regulations 2007 and what actions s/he has taken in relation to this account.

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Re: Copy of signed loan contract

Post by Tiggy on Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:58 pm

Could you clarify the difference between:

Deed of Assignment

That's the sale agreement between the assignor and the assignee for the assignment of the debt.

Notice of Assignment

That's the notice given to the debtor that the assignment has taken place.

Both the above come under Section 136 of the Law of Property Act 1925

Deed of Novation

This is also known as a Deed of Tripartite Novation, it's where two parties to a contract formally agree to replace one of the parties with a 3rd party.  In other words all 3 parties agree to the replacement, it is predominantly used in construction contracts.

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Re: Copy of signed loan contract

Post by Ausk on Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:15 am

Tiggy wrote:
Jinxer wrote:Would it be out of order asking them to prove how they paid the money to you. I mean with identity theft and all that and if you genuinely couldn't remember signing a loan agreement, would they not have to prove somehow what bank account they deposited the money into or what account the cheque was cashed in.

You can basically, ask for any information as long as it's related to the alleged debt and 'proportionate' (if it came to it, it would be upto a Judge to decide what is proportionate or not).

"You can basically, ask for any information as long as it's related to the alleged debt and 'proportionate' (if it came to it, it would be upto a Judge to decide what is proportionate or not)"

I take it Tiggy that a Notice for Dicovery or Notice to Produce would be the vehicle for doing this?

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Re: Copy of signed loan contract

Post by Whymeok on Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:47 am

is a notice enough for a dca company to take case to court or do dca need to also provide the two others in above tiggy post?

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Re: Copy of signed loan contract

Post by Tiggy on Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:04 pm

Ausk wrote:
Tiggy wrote:
Jinxer wrote:Would it be out of order asking them to prove how they paid the money to you. I mean with identity theft and all that and if you genuinely couldn't remember signing a loan agreement, would they not have to prove somehow what bank account they deposited the money into or what account the cheque was cashed in.

You can basically, ask for any information as long as it's related to the alleged debt and 'proportionate' (if it came to it, it would be upto a Judge to decide what is proportionate or not).
I take it Tiggy that a Notice for Dicovery or Notice to Produce would be the vehicle for doing this?

In the England & Wales you can use Pre Action Conduct Protocol, Request for Further Information or if proceedings have commenced and dependent upon the value of the Claim, either CPR 31.14 Disclosure of Documentation or CPR 18 Request for Further Information.

If you put forward a convincing argument a Judge will order the information to be provided as a part of the Case Management / issue of Standard Directions.

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