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Moon phases


Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by Theatchet on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:22 pm

Anybody with a bit more of an idea than me know if this would be an appropriate response to their reconstituted agreement claim?

All they have sent is a digital application, to which, there is no heading prescribed by the CCA, no copy of the terms and conditions or any variations which may have occurred, they have not given any reasoning to why there is no copy of the CCA.

(3) The terms and conditions should be those applicable at the time the agreement was executed. The name and address at the time of execution must be included.
(4) The reconstituted agreement should contain a heading prescribed by the CCA and any relevant cancellation notice.
(5) If the reason why no copy is given in response to a request under these sections is that there never was an executed agreement, the firm should acknowledge this in its response.
(6) If the agreement has been varied, the duty is to provide not only a copy of the agreement as originally executed but also either:
(a) a copy of the latest variation given in accordance with section 82(1) of the CCA relating to each discrete term of the agreement which has been varied; or,
(b) a clear statement of the terms of the agreement as varied.


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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by Guest on Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:54 am

ive now been sent a copy of the defualt notice saying i have 14 days or they will send to county court for action.. what should i do now guys thanks again

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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by daveiron on Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:16 pm

Hi ,

Read Theatets post above , Inform them that you have requested & require the information above .

"you have now asked at least 3 times & you now take their response as an admission that they cannot or will not provide documentation that you are entitled to possess ,and should they wish to proceed to court you will require that documentation be provided to the court".
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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by Guest on Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:30 pm

so should i send them a copy of those listings along with your qoute ?? thanks

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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by daveiron on Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:36 pm

Yes I would base a reply on that. All that you have asked for is what you are entitled to.
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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:26 pm

just recived this now

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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:26 pm

not sure why its upside down sorry

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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by Theatchet on Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:55 pm

Found this whilst doing some digging. I've added a couple of other things after. It looks like they are breaking the rules and clearly misleading on the reconstituted agreement front. The dealings I've had so far are a digital application and some transactions on a bit of paper. It wasn't until my third request for the terms and conditions they even mentioned it was a reconstituted agreement ( well what they are claiming to be ). When I pointed this out that it wasn't actually a reconstituted agreement, due to the outlined points below, they said they would contact the original creditor again and request the agreement, along with the terms and conditions. So in their own words, they haven't complied with rules, and haven't sent me the reconstituted agreement.

The following is the full version

Preliminary issues with regards to Reconstituted version of a CCA

The preliminary issues determined by the judge in the case were:

Issue 1

When providing a copy of an executed agreement in response to a request under section 78(1) of the Act:

a. must a creditor provide a photocopy (or other form of complete copy) of the original agreement that was signed by the debtor or at least provide a copy which is derived directly from the original agreement or complete copy thereof? or
b. can a creditor provide a document which is a reconstitution of the original agreement which may be from sources other than the actual signed agreement itself?
It was held that a creditor can satisfy its duty under section 78 by providing a reconstituted version of the executed agreement which may be from sources other than the actual signed agreement itself.

The judge accepted that as a matter of law, section 78 does not itself require any particular explanation as to how the copy was made. However, as a matter of good practice and so as not to mislead the debtor, it is desirable that the creditor should explain that it is providing a reconstituted as opposed to a physical copy of the executed agreement. This will also explain why the copy might otherwise look a little odd. The creditor can also explain in the letter that this procedure is satisfactory under the Act.
The judge also provided that the following information needs to be included in the reconstituted copy agreement (assuming of course that it was present in the original):

1. Heading: Credit Agreement regulated by the consumer crediticon Act 1974
2. Name and address of the debtor
3. Name and address of the creditor
4. Cancellation clause applicable to the executed agreement.

All of the above may be provided on a sheet which is separate from the full statement of terms and conditions which also forms part of the reconstituted agreement. The creditor may, however, decide to reconstitute the agreement in a different way so that, for example, the information above is populated electronically onto the same sheet as that which sets out the terms and conditions, or some of them. The judge stated that he did not intend to prescribe the precise form of the reconstituted agreement. The key point is what information it should contain, subject to the point that its format should not be such as to mislead the debtor as to what he agreed to.

The judge also considered whether a statement like the one appearing in the reconstructed application form in Carey referring to the agreement to the terms and conditions "attached" needs to be included in the reconstituted copy. Alternatively if the application form had said "I agree to the terms overleaf", should that statement be included. The judge held that this aspect of the form is not necessary for the purpose of the section 78 copy, although there is nothing to stop a bank from putting it in or indeed from furnishing a copy of the type of application form or signatureicon page that the debtor would have signed, as some banks have done. The statement referring to terms and conditions is not itself prescribed information and the supply of the terms and conditions which were applicable at the time will tell the debtor what he needs to know in terms of the content of what he signed up to, including the presence (or otherwise) of the prescribed terms.

In practical terms what this is likely to mean is that if the creditor chooses to use as the section 78 copy the section 63 copy, which would have been provided to that particular debtor at the time following execution of the agreement, this will be sufficient provided that the information referred to above is supplied. This exercise is not a mere formality. The creditor will need to check carefully that the details of the debtor at the time are correct and that those are the particular terms (including prescribed terms) that he/she agreed to. This is to ensure that it is an honest and accurate copy.
Must a creditor provide a document which would comply (if signed) with the requirements of the consumer crediticon (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (Regulations) as to form, as at the date the agreement was made in order to comply with section 78?

A creditor need not, in complying with section 78, provide a document which would comply (if signed) with the requirements of the Regulations as to form, as at the date the agreement was made.

Must the copy provided under section 78 include the debtor's name and address as at the date when the agreement was made, and if so in what form?
The section 78 copy must contain the name and address of the debtor as it was at the time of the execution of the agreement. But the creditor can provide the name and address from whatever source it has of those details. It does not have to take them from the executed agreement itself.

Issue 2

If an agreement has been varied by the creditor under a unilateral power of variation, is a copy of the executed agreement as varied, a sufficient copy for the purposes of section 78(1), or must the creditor provide a copy of the original agreement as well?
If an agreement has been varied by the creditor under a unilateral power of variation, the creditor must still provide a copy of the original agreement, as well as the varied terms.

Issue 3

Does a creditor's breach of section 78(1) of itself give rise to an unfair relationship within the meaning of section 140A of the Act?
If a creditor is in breach of section 78 this does not of itself give rise to an unfair relationship within the meaning of section 140A.

Issue 4

If there is a breach of section 78(1), is that sufficient without more to make a declaration to that effect appropriate, in particular:

a. where the creditor admits the breach but did not admit it before the issue of proceedings?
b. where the creditor denies or does not admit the breach?

A court has jurisdiction to declare whether in a particular case there has been a breach of section 78. Whether it will be appropriate to grant such a declaration depends on the circumstances of that case. If there are proceedings on foot and within them the creditor formally admits non-compliance with section 78, there is no point in maintaining the proceedings just to obtain a declaration to that effect.

Issue 5

Does the document signed by the debtor contain the prescribed terms for the purposes of section 61 and/or section 127(3) if:

a. they are on a sheet which is referred to on the piece of paper that was signed by the debtor; or
b. that sheet is attached to the piece of paper signed by the debtor; or
c. that sheet is separate from but was supplied with the piece of paper signed by the debtor?

The judge held that in assessing whether prescribed terms are "contained" in an executed agreement the following principles are relevant:

• it is not sufficient for the piece of paper signed by the debtor merely to cross-refer to the prescribed terms without a copy of those terms being supplied to the debtor at the point of signature
• a document need not be a single piece of paper
• whether several pieces of paper constitute one document is a question of substance not form. In particular a physical connection between several pieces of paper is not necessary in order for them to constitute one document
• a physical connection (or one or more physical connections) between several pieces of paper does not necessarily constitute them as one document
• where the debtor's signature and the prescribed terms appear on separate pieces of paper, the questions of whether those pieces of paper together constitute one document is a question of substance and not form.

He added that he would not seek to answer the questions in issue 5 in their current state because the scenarios postulated all require some further elaboration before a simple "yes" or "no" answer can be given.

Issue 6

If it were not established, at trial, that there was a document signed by the debtor containing the prescribed terms, would that of itself entail an unfair relationship?
The judge held that the answer to the question was no.

These may be some points you want to ask and raise with them?

Have they made a claim that the paperwork they have sent you is a reconstituted agreement?

CONC 13.1.4

(2) The firm can reconstitute a copy. It can do this by re-populating a template of the relevant agreement form with the details of the specific agreement taken from its records. If the firm does provide a reconstituted copy, it should explain that that is what it has done, to avoid misleading the customer that this is a contemporaneous copy.

From the stuff above.

The judge also provided that the following information needs to be included in the reconstituted copy agreement (assuming of course that it was present in the original):

1. Heading: Credit Agreement regulated by the consumer crediticon Act 1974
2. Name and address of the debtor
3. Name and address of the creditor
4. Cancellation clause applicable to the executed agreement.

All of the above may be provided on a sheet which is separate from the full statement of terms and conditions which also forms part of the reconstituted agreement. The creditor may, however, decide to reconstitute the agreement in a different way so that, for example, the information above is populated electronically onto the same sheet as that which sets out the terms and conditions, or some of them. The judge stated that he did not intend to prescribe the precise form of the reconstituted agreement. The key point is what information it should contain, subject to the point that its format should not be such as to mislead the debtor as to what he agreed to.

Failure to comply

CONC 13.1.6G02/11/2015

(1) Failure to comply with the provisions means that the agreement becomes unenforceable while the failure to comply persists, and the courts have no discretion to allow enforcement.

(2) In such cases, a firm should in no way, either by act or omission, mislead a customer as to the enforceability of the agreement.

(3) In particular, a firm should not in such cases either threaten court action or other enforcement of the debt or imply that the debt is enforceable when it is not.

(4) The firm should, in any request for payment or communication relating to a payment (other than a statement issued in accordance with the CCA or regulations made under it which does not constitute or contain a request for payment) in such cases, make clear to the customer that although the debt remains outstanding it is unenforceable.

(Cool However, where a firm is aware that an agreement is unenforceable because of non-compliance with an information request under section 77, 78 or 79 of the CCA, a firm should make it clear when communicating to a customer about a debt that the debt is in fact unenforceable. Failure to do so, in that case, would in the FCA's view unfairly mislead the customer by omission. Any communication that implies expressly or otherwise that a debt is enforceable when it is known that it is not, would be misleading. One way to avoid this would be for the firm to explain to the customer the full meaning of 'unenforceable'.

Then there is this too.

Pre-action protocol procedure

5 DISCLOSURE OF DOCUMENTS

5.1 Early disclosure of documents and relevant information can help to clarify or
resolve any issues in dispute. Where any aspect of the debt is disputed
(including the amount, interest, charges, time for payment, or the creditor’s
compliance with relevant statutes and regulations), the parties should
exchange information and disclose documents sufficient to enable them to
understand each other’s position.

5.2 If the debtor requests a document or information, the creditor must –

(a) provide the document or information; or
(b) explain why the document or information is unavailable,
within 30 days of receipt of the request.

7 COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PROTOCOL

7.1 If a matter proceeds to litigation, the court will expect the parties to have
complied with this Protocol. The court will take into account non-compliance
when giving directions for the management of proceedings. The court will
consider whether all parties have complied in substance with the terms of the
Protocol and is not likely to be concerned with minor or technical
infringements, especially when the matter is urgent.

Anyone with more knowledge is welcome to add or clear some of these issues up. This is just the angles I can see.

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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by Tvarred on Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:12 pm

What has been said by the original poster is almost a carbon copy of what happened to me. I followed all the advice of GOODF, went through the 3 letter process, billing them and telling them they are breaking the law. I received exactly what has been shown on this thread including the statements and screen shots of the online agreement.

Result was that the "judge" disallowed all my paperwork and arguments and found against me. I've ended up paying a nominal sum to Lowlife Financial each month just to f*ck them off even though they, and the court have no address for me.

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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:12 pm

That's interesting to know tvarred so basically looks like it's not going to work out so may as well make an agreement with them. They don't have a proper address for me either but obviously got to do something about it as don't want to have to pay cost on top either as I've just been made redundant from work. Thanks for everyone's help here

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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by Theatchet on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:24 pm

L8Z wrote:That's interesting to know tvarred so basically looks like it's not going to work out so may as well make an agreement with them. They don't have a proper address for me either but obviously got to do something about it as don't want to have to pay cost on top either as I've just been made redundant from work. Thanks for everyone's help here

Did you not read anything I posted before that comment you just responded to?

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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by Society of the Spectacle on Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:30 pm

L8Z wrote:That's interesting to know tvarred so basically looks like it's not going to work out so may as well make an agreement with them. They don't have a proper address for me either but obviously got to do something about it as don't want to have to pay cost on top either as I've just been made redundant from work. Thanks for everyone's help here

Tvarred has only 3 posts,
you can see what the other ones were here,
and thus gain an idea of the experience of the person advising you.
http://goodf.forumotion.com/spa/Tvarred
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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:36 pm

Yes I've been in private message with theatchet I need to put together another letter to send them and not give up this early. They can't take what I haven't got anyway.

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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by Tvarred on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:02 pm

My post was not intended to be advice, but rather a warning that despite doing everything correct you may well fail if you end up in court. My advice, for what its worth is to avoid entering their kangaroo court and get it sorted before then.

Also just because someone has only a few posts doesn't mean they haven't been through the experience like I did for 6 years and tried all the options. Obviously new solutions have been exposed recently and may well work better than what I tried. I do hope that no one thinks I'm some sort of troll or shill as I'm a genuine guy who does try to help people.

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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:13 pm

I understand what you are saying thanks for that Smile .. this is not the only forum that has very knowledgeable people on these matters but this seems the best place Smile

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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by Tvarred on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:25 pm

L8Z wrote:I understand what you are saying thanks for that Smile .. this is not the only forum that has very knowledgeable people on these matters but this seems the best place Smile

Thanks for that! Unfortunately forums like this do attract unsavoury characters and can lead to online verbals and bad advice.

I've been to 2 of the Nottingham meetings and am passionate about my life journey and am willing to show all the paperwork relating to my case.


Last edited by Tvarred on Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by 1saberwow on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:27 pm

Google the Law of Property Act 1925 section 136 and have a read. Could you use this to send to the dca chasing you?

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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

Post by Tiggy on Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:31 pm

@1saberwow wrote:Google the Law of Property Act 1925 section 136 and have a read. Could you use this to send to the dca chasing you?

DCA's use Section 136 of the Law of Property Act 1925 to back up that they have been legally assigned the debt.

If that particular section didn't exist then the Doctrine of Privity would apply and they'd be unable to pursue a purchased debt through the Courts.

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Re: Lowell vanquis - Tiggy?

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