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Moon phases


Debt purchaser using DCA to initiate court proceedings but purchaser without permissions is on court papers

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Debt purchaser using DCA to initiate court proceedings but purchaser without permissions is on court papers Empty Debt purchaser using DCA to initiate court proceedings but purchaser without permissions is on court papers

Post by Kestrel Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:25 pm

If a debt purchaser uses a debt collector to chase up an alleged debt & the debt collector (not purchaser) then initiates it will persue court proceedings BUT the debt purchasers name is on the court claim papers & this particular debt purchaser has 'no permissions' to collect debt (under FCA rules etc), how would you deal with this in so far as i understand the whole scenario above is not allowed/illegal?



Last edited by Kestrel on Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling)

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Post by Kestrel Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:03 am

Thanks handle, I've a bit more information now the claimant is a Debt Purchaser which has no permissions to collect debt (going by their permissions on the FCA website), their representative is a solicitor of a third party - another DCA & not that of the claimant themselves.om

So the claim form reads from what I know:
Claimant: Debt Purchaser
Representative or agent: Solicitor (of third party DCA)

Is this actually allowed namely using a third party but the claimant cannot claim as they are not allowed to???

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Post by waylander62 Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:24 pm

what you need to look for here is whether they are permitted to act on behalf of the purchaser/ buyer under a service agreement.

the important bit to look for is if the debt purchaser has permission to act as creditor under a regulated agreement, or that the claimant is in fact the owner if not then the claimant would need the correct permission to bring a claim.


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Post by Kestrel Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:43 pm

Thanks again handle, would that be the Lord Denning ruling regarding case law?
I've it somewhere

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Post by waylander62 Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:59 pm

the debt purchaser must have permission to be able to act as creditor under a regulated agreement

if they are the claimant then they are acting as creditor under a regulated agreement.

worth checking and can be used as a preliminary argument should they issue a claim.

yes it was the Lord Denning case which stated that you have a right to see the sale agreement

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Post by waylander62 Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:31 am

handle wrote:where do they get permission from?

if you go on the FCA website and put in the claimants name you can open up a whole host of information, if you look it will tell you a list of their permissions, if they do not have the permission to act as creditor under a regulated agreement then that could be used.

helped someone recently, 23k debt, claim was stayed, they submitted an application to lift the stay and be awarded judgement, court called a hearing. defendant panicked and i helped them submit a witness statement, using this as the main point of argument. the application to lift the stay was accepted. the defendant represented themselves in court and brought up this argument, stopped the claim in its tracks. even the judge didnt know how to proceed so refused to award judgement.

ordered: a) the claimant to file a full amended defence including this argument
b) the claimant to file a response to this defence.

result: we filed amended defence, claimant responded with a pile of shite. after discussing the matter defendant approached a solicitor with our paperwork, solicitor said yes i will take this on.

one phone call from the solicitor to the claimant, 2 days later a letter of discontinuance !! 23k saved

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Post by waylander62 Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:43 am

ok will keep my on on the thread,

no guarantees with this but always worth a try and to raise it as a preliminary issue should any proceedings be initiated.

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Post by Kestrel Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:50 pm

The FCA gives permissions for financial bodies to collect debt amongst other permissions but it appears many debt purchasers have no permission to collect  debt & are using third parties instead BUT the debt purchaser/creditor is the one named as claimant on court claim forms although they have no legal standing to do so - that is my interpretation & that of others, how can you 'legally' pursue a debt through the courts when not legally regulated by the FCA to do so.

Link here for searches:
https://register.fca.org.uk/

More here:
Permission to carry on debt collecting is required to collect debts arising under credit agreements, consumer hire agreements and regulated peer-to-peer loans. Utility debts and company debts are excluded as they are not credit agreements. However, any steps taken to gain payment of a debt due under a credit agreement (consumer hire agreement or regulated peer-to-peer loan) constitutes debt collecting – whether the agreement is regulated or exempt.
https://www.fca.org.uk/firms/authorisation/process/debt-collectors

I read this as if the claimant on court papers is one without 'permissions' then they cannot collect debt i.e put in a court claim.

A firm requires FCA permission to carry out activities specified by the Regulated Activities Order 2001.
'The Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Regulated Activities) Order 2001'
https://www.fca.org.uk/firms/authorisation/how-to-apply/activities

The Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Regulated Activities) (Amendment) (No.2) Order 2013
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2013/9780111100493
39D onwards appears to be debt related.

https://www.fca.org.uk/publication/finalised-guidance/consumer-credit-being-regulated-guide.pdf

Take a look at the below, I read that demands for payments should discontinue if they fail to provide evidence when you claim their claim is unproven, i.e. no proof of claim is given (applies to my current circumstances anyway)
CONC 7.5.3R01/04/2014
RP
A firm must not ignore or disregard a customer's claim that a debt has been settled or is disputed and must not continue to make demands for payment without providing clear justification and/or evidence as to why the customer's claim is not valid.
[Note: paragraph 3.7o of DCG]
https://www.handbook.fca.org.uk/handbook/CONC/7/5.html?date=2016-03-21

CONC 7.14.3R01/04/2014
RP
Where a customer disputes a debt on valid grounds or what may be valid grounds, the firm must investigate the dispute and provide details of the debt to the customer in a timely manner.
[Note: paragraph 3.9i of DCG]
https://www.handbook.fca.org.uk/handbook/CONC/7/14.html?date=2016-03-21


Last edited by Kestrel on Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:20 pm; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : More info)

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Post by Lopsum Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:38 pm

find any post by tiggy,or member list and click on the name to see their profile / statistics then find all posts.
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Post by Kestrel Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:56 pm

handle wrote:Thanks Waylander and Kestrel.
There was a post on this forum by Tiggy which stated sometimes a company is covered by the FCA (or FOS) registration of another connected company.

I cant find that post. How can I see posts made by Tiggy?

Yes there is something along those lines but the debt purchaser/creditor been the claimant on court papers when they have are not allowed to pursue debt, if the third party was down instead as claiming for them I would have thought they may be ok to do so, like many things it can be up in the air & who you end up in front of. I've to check but I don't think the third party can trade from the same address as the claimant & this lot I'm dealing with are or so it appears.

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Post by waylander62 Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:39 pm

ring the FCA

get your questions ready, and your reasons for believing they do not have the permission and ask the FCA directly.

no need to say why, a friend or friend of a friend could need clarification.

Tiggy has always said that they act under a service agreement, but if you look more closely that is not always the case.

the claimant is trying to obtain a court order for a debt they allegedly own
therefore they are trying to exercise their rights as owner under a regulated agreement, they are now the creditor. IF they do not have permission to act as creditor under regulated consumer agreement then challenge it.

that is my thoughts anyway.

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Post by Jackbnimble Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:30 am

I asked the fca the following question about 18 months ago and got the reply underneath.

If Hoist Portfolio Holding 2 Limited is not authorised to undertake consumer credit business, is it allowed to hire Robinson Way Limited or any other debt collecting agency to collect this debt.

Our rules do not prevent the firm from assigning a third party firm (Robinson Way Limited) to recovery the debt on their behalf, as long as the firm is authorised or has IP.

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Post by Kestrel Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:20 pm

Jackbnimble wrote:I asked the fca the following question about 18 months ago and got the reply underneath.

If Hoist Portfolio Holding 2 Limited is not authorised to undertake consumer credit business, is it allowed to hire Robinson Way Limited or any other debt collecting agency to collect this debt.

Our rules do not prevent the firm from assigning a third party firm (Robinson Way Limited) to recovery the debt on their behalf, as long as the firm is authorised or has IP.

Thanks, it all seams out of order (but it's all a game & fraud anyway but it is us who suffer). What I'm trying to find out (no joy with FCA) Is that on court papers the claimant is a firm that is unregulated/no permission to collect debt although it is the third party who is pursuing the 'alleged' debt. Now if the third party (regulated with permission to collect debt was down as the claimant I would see it differently). So how can a firm with no permission to collect debt be a claimant???

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Post by waylander62 Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:12 pm

Jackbnimble wrote:I asked the fca the following question about 18 months ago and got the reply underneath.

If Hoist Portfolio Holding 2 Limited is not authorised to undertake consumer credit business, is it allowed to hire Robinson Way Limited or any other debt collecting agency to collect this debt.

Our rules do not prevent the firm from assigning a third party firm (Robinson Way Limited) to recovery the debt on their behalf, as long as the firm is authorised or has IP.

you are missing the point here and so are the FCA, they are right it does not stop them assigning another company to collect the debt or recover the debt BUT BUT BUT

the point is if they are the claimant on the claim form then they are acting as the CREDITOR under a regulated agreement, they have to be, if they are not authorised to do so then it should be challenged, the FCA need to answer that question, not just can they collect the debt !!

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Post by daveiron Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:36 am

Hi handle,

Do you have the Carey/ HSBC case ? wouldn't mind a look at that. thanks dave.
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