Liability Order - Bailiff called - CMS/CSA

It may be a little controversial as there are too many fathers (and some mothers) shirking from their responsibilities as a parent. But my mate sees his kids regular and provides for them when they're with him, he also tells he pays half towards holidays/school trips etc...he's a good dad.
He's not contributed to the mother (much lately) he's run into financial difficulties with business the last few years so sold most of his stuff to keep going and needs his car.

She's gone to CMS, he's told them his financial situation.
They've taken him to mags (Oct 2018) - he couldn't make the hearing so applied for an adjournment.
Letters from CMS saying they got liability order (Sept 18) - 2 letters with 2 amounts.
Then 3 Notice of Enforcement arrived, with 3 amounts.
Then a few days ago (22,1,19) an enforcement agent put a letter through his door saying he'll be back in 10 days to remove goods. Total amount is different from above amounts.

He sent an email to the court, thinking he'd be ok because he asked for an adjournment. i said i'd try and help...this is email chain:

Good Morning XXXXXX,

I have spoken to our legal team here reference to your inquiry, please see their response below.

Regards,

Khalid Mahmood | Case Preparation | Phone:0121 212 6336 | Email:Khalid.Mahmood3@justice.gov.uk |
Birmingham Magistrates Court | Victoria Law Courts | Corporation Street | Birmingham | B4 6QA |
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Subject: RE: Liability Order | SCIN: XXXXXXXXXXX

Dear Khalid,

Please advise Mr XXXXXXX to seek independent legal advice as to how to appeal  the decision made by the magistrates’ court. There are no grounds to warrant the matter being re-listed back in the magistrates’ court.

Good Afternoon,

Please can you assist with the below.

Regards,

Khalid Mahmood | Case Preparation | Phone:0121 212 6336 | Email:Khalid.Mahmood3@justice.gov.uk |
Birmingham Magistrates Court | Victoria Law Courts | Corporation Street | Birmingham | B4 6QA |
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From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: 28 January 2019 14:40
To: CasePrepBirmingham <CasePrepBirmingham@Justice.gov.uk>
Subject: Liability Order | SCIN: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Importance: High


Dear Sir or Madam,

Regarding the Liability Order:

I respectfully request to appeal the Liability Order and have the following points/requests if you can please oblige or advise where you can't:

1. I have not seen the liability order, only two letters from Child Maintenance Enforcement Team claiming a Liability Order has been granted along with what appear to be photocopies of said Liability Order and a page offering financial advise on how to make payments.

2. I have no legal proof that there is a debt owed. There are discrepancies on the amounts that are allegedly being claimed. I wish to request:
   a, A copy of the sworn statement by the (Authorised Assistant to the) Justices' Clerk.
   b, Proof of the debt, evidence that the CMS have paid funds to the Parent with Care.
   c, Accounts showing all payments hitherto made to the Parent with Care.

3. That the Clerk who issued the summons provides me with their documentation to show they scrutinised the sworn statement provided by an employee of the CMS/CMEC, in accordance with Justice Clerks Rules 2005 (S.I.2005 No.545).

4. As a matter of urgency, a letter dated 22nd Jan 2019 was posted through the door, from an enforcement agent: Andy Carlton of marston holdings. He states he will be back within 10 days if he is not contacted to remove goods. Would you advise him that you have received this email? Please confirm if you will do this. His number is 07946 501538. Their reference # XXXXXXXXXX.
   a, What is the current situation regarding the enforcement agent calling again?

5. I contacted the court before the hearing (please see email below) and would like to ask why the adjournment was not granted?

On 23/08/18 10:29, XXXXXXXXXX wrote:

   Dear Sir or Madam,

   I am unable to attend tomorrows hearing as I have no funds to enable me to travel / get there.

   I had been promised early payment on work done but this has not materialised.

   I request adjournment.

   Regards
   XXXXXXXXXX

   NI: XXXXXXXXXXX

6. If I am to attend Court, could you please make it in the closest Court to XXXXXXXX?

I will be emailing the CMS for disclosure on any of the above points you cannot assist me with.

Kind regards and I look forward to hearing from you soon,
XXXXXXXXXX


Any advice will be greatly welcomed
cheers

He indicated this as a reference to the info used: http://www.deadbeatdadsassociation.co.uk/index_files/Page2870.htm

Just to add, the liability orders (2 of them) are to a Mr Xxxxxx Xxxxxx
On the letter from enforcement agent the addressee has no Mr just his name written in caps
i guess this is still to the "person"?

And a few questions...
Is it advisable to contact the bailiff?
What will happen if there is no contact during the 10 days?
What will happen if he has no money or "goods" (his possessions aren't goods are they?) that they can take?
As you say Assassin
Workers such as builders or other tradesmen cannot let bailiffs in, only the occupant named can, and if they convince a tradesman to let them in then it is an unlawful entry and nullifies any alleged warrant they have, and any future actions.
So if one of his family members or friends let them in (and he's out) - game over for them, forever?

Interesting...the legalese is spinning my head on this though:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/48/enacted
33 Liability orders
(1)This section applies where—
(a)a person is this a him? not her? what is a him or her? who is liable to make payments of child support maintenance (“the liable person”) fails to make one or more of those payments; and
(b)it appears to the Secretary of State that—
(i)it is inappropriate to make a deduction from earnings order against him not her! The "liable person"?(because, for example, he is he a man or person? is not employed); or
(ii)although such an order has been made against him, it has proved ineffective as a means of securing that payments are made in accordance with the maintenance assessment in question.
(2)The Secretary of State may apply to a magistrates' court or, in Scotland, to the sheriff for an order (“a liability order”) against the liable person.
(3)Where the Secretary of State applies for a liability order, the magistrates' court or (as the case may be) sheriff shall make the order if satisfied that the payments in question have become payable by the liable person and have not been paid.
(4)On an application under subsection (2), the court or (as the case may be) the sheriff shall not question the maintenance assessment under which the payments of child support maintenance fell to be made.

And the other part:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/1989/regulation/28/made
Application for a liability order
28.—(1) An application for a liability order shall be by way of complaint for an order to the magistrates' court having jurisdiction in the area in which the liable person resides.

Have to leave it to you guys, head spinning so a glass of red due
cheers

Hi all,
No one any thoughts on this? Is it a taboo topic?

Been looking into a few things and the CMS/CSA seem to be more corrupt than most. Yes payments should be made to the children, no doubt about that, but should it not be done lawfully and fairly?
Seems the now CMS will go on the word of the living with parent and issue proceeding from then, without any proof.
one example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIAwj4artvQ
Proof the British Government's Child Maintenance Service, Lies and misrepresents itself. Under the CMS's own admission they act without evidence destroying lives.
They need to follow due-process as set out in law, and they continually refuse to do so. Sending out Detachment of Earnings orders, without the legal authority to do so, and without regards to Article 6 of human rights - The right to a fair trial.

And mags, must follow the law too.

How can this be halted, does the N244 work in the mags? To stop the bailiff and more potential/alleged costs.
i guess a SAR can be sent to mags and CMS...? There must be full disclosure?
On the first post it was claimed by the mags There are no grounds to warrant the matter being re-listed back in the magistrates’ court. - does a defence have to be made - as in a county court?
Surely the liability order must be produced (added into the SAR?)? mags claim it does not need to be wet signed...is this lawful?
Has the liability order got to come from a court?
Surely some of the other points in the first post must be answerable by the mags?
Does the format of this need to be changed?

Sorry lots of questions, lots i don't get...a web of lies and much in common it seems with mags and council tax!
The county court seems much more (not straight forward)...precise.
Any help greatly appreciated, especially as time is running out, we need to identify the next step urgenty.

Hope some of this helps others too with the mags/liability orders etc...

This is next to look into:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2vx5H-ZG6A
Just done it myself - Civil procedure rule 5-4-2 requires a court to produce all case file documents on written request citing the rule within 48 hrs. Just got two letters stating there is no case against me from both magistrates and county court. The council has no case against me therefore the council citing a liability order but not producing it are committing fraud. Court costs were also cited but no court was used, no receipt in case file. so how can there be costs ? obviously no Justice of the peace was involved and the whole thing is a sham produced and printed at the council offices. I would suggest that anyone doing this go to the county court first because they generally have legally trained people available at the counter and they know how serious a breach of the CVP rules is. Then take your letter to the magistrates court and if you have any problems show them the CC letter. Next step public liability claim against the councils head of revenue for using fraudulent instruments in order to illegally take property ( money in this case ). Remember always address the person at the council to keep the claim in public jurisdiction.

This is what was sent...

Emma Arbuthnot
Senior District Judge
181 Marylebone Road
London
NW1 5BR
DX 120551, Marylebone 9

26th February 2019
NOTICE: VERIFICATION REQUIRED

Relating to Liability Orders dated 24,08,2018
Reference: NYXXXXXXXXXXX
Court 2922

For the attention of: Senior District Judge (Chief Magistrate); Emma Arbuthnot,

I am here in my proper capacity as the Occupant of the Executor Office of the ALL CAPS NAME MR XXXXX XXXX Estate.

I, offer remedy to any verified claims.

I require the following:

1. That you tell me who the claimant is.
a. My obligation to consent to the claimant.
b. Proof of my consent to the claimant.

2. A copy of the sworn statement by the (Authorised Assistant to the) Justices' Clerk.
a, Proof of the debt, evidence that the claimant has paid out funds.
b, Accounts showing all payments hitherto made by the claimant on this matter.

3. That the Clerk who issued the liability orders provides me with their documentation to show they scrutinised the sworn statement provided by an employee of the claimant, in accordance with Justice Clerks Rules 2005 (S.I.2005 No.545).

4. That you tell me how a liability order can be made against a woman or man who is in full control of maintaining their property.

5. That you present any/all bona fide liability orders in the name of Mr Xxxxxx Xxxxxx.


If all of the above requirements are not met within 21 days I demand that this claim be dismissed.

SIGNED BY:

xxxxx of the xxxxx family

DATE: 26th February 2019


“This lawful notice adds to the Record Of The Parties”

Will keep you posed

And a reply to the email, this was sent...

Good afternoon Khalid,

Other than being given legal advise on 28,02,2019 I still have had no reply to the points that I made on the 28,01,2019.

I require you tell me:
1. Who has offered me this legal advice?
2. In what capacity are they offering this legal advice?
3. What company do they work for?
4. What is their position within this company?
5. Where do they get their authority to offer legal advice
a. the Company/Corporation?
b. the Person?

Furthermore; on this day 26,02,2019 I have sent [Notice: Verification Required] to:
Emma Arbuthnot
Senior District Judge
181 Marylebone Road
London
NW1 5BR
DX 120551, Marylebone 9

Please find attached:- NOTICE REMOVAL OF IMPLIED RIGHT OF ACCESS.pdf
If you will kindly pass this on to any/all organisation/s that may be inclined to visit the property mentioned (in the notice) regarding this matter.
As I have no email for Marston Holdings or idea of who else may be/have been involved.

Kind regards

Finally heard something (2,9,19). Seems to us this reply (from a person with no name) is passing the book, yet saying advise has already been given. Yet nothing has been answered, despite reasonable requirements requested...any thoughts on our reply?

The fat cherry on top of the thick icing on the big cake would be....how to hold them accountable? Get them into a proper court (as they are a corporation), there must be a way.

Something else learned...Liability Order from Council will NOT go on your credit file, yet CSA/CMS etc...will.

The reply....

Good afternoon,



We see that you have already contacted Birmingham Magistrates’ Court and have been advised by them.



Please contact the Court for the information you require.



Kind regards



Chief Magistrates' Office

Westminster Magistrates' Court | 181 Marylebone Road, London | NW1 5BR



From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX]
Sent: 01 September 2019 10:06
To: Mahmood, Khalid <Khalid.Mahmood3@justice.gov.uk>; GL-CMO.DDJDeployment <GL-CMO.DDJDeployment@JusticeUK.onmicrosoft.com>; Correspondence@dwp.gov.uk
Subject: Re: FW: Liability Order | SCIN: 121021969676 // FAO: All Offices addressed | Senior District Judge (Chief Magistrate); Emma Arbuthnot
Importance: High



Dear all,

This email is addressed to all Offices and its representatives whilst allowing all to confer.

Further to the letter and email dated 7th August 2019 no reply has been received.
No change to the credit agency file of MR XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXX has been made and no compensation for lost revenue and damages has been received.

After seeking advise, the DWP - Department for Work and Pensions Office may have issued the Liability Orders, they are now included in the email chain.
DWP, please see email chain below, attached are the sent letters (Letter to Senior District Judge-7,8,19.pdf has been amended - Mr Mahmood, please resubmit if necessary).

One or more of the Offices this email is addressing has done wrong to and caused damage to MR XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXX Estate. This is a very serious matter. As Occupant of the Executor Office I require this matter be resolved and MR XXXXX XXXXXXXXXXX Estate be restored. Both Liability Orders to be removed from all credit agency files and confirmation verifying this is actioned is sent by email to xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx within 7 working days, by Friday 10th September 2019.

OR

I require to know how this has been contrived.

None of the requirements set out in the letter dated 26th February 2019 have been met. There is no verification and deadlines breached.
It was demanded that this alleged claim be dismissed if the requirements were not met within 21 days. This has not been done and continues to cause damage.

I require:
1. To know if all Offices addressed in this email are capable of resolving this matter?
2. If you are not the Office capable of resolving this matter, which Office and to whom is capable?
3. To know if there are any other Offices involved in this matter?
   a. That if there are other Offices involved in this matter disclose the full Office / title / person and address.
4. Written proof of authority of any/all Offices that can administer MR XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Estate.

I require the above points to be fully answered within 10 working days, by Friday 13th September 2019.

Subject Access Request - SAR - for all data on MR XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX held by;

   a. The Magistrates Court - Court 2922.
   b. The Department for Work and Pensions / CMS / CSA / any other DWP Office that has been involved in this matter.
Within 10 working days, by Friday 13th September 2019.
   c. If I need to post a SAR to each and every Office; disclose the full Office / title / person and address that it must be sent to
Within 5 working days, by Friday 6th September 2019.



Emails are deemed as served.

Yours sincerely
Xxxxxxxx

“This lawful notice adds to the Record Of The Parties”

---END---

On 07/08/2019 15:39, XXXXXXXX wrote:

   Good afternoon Khalid,

   Please find attached letter addressed to; Senior District Judge (Chief Magistrate); Emma Arbuthnot

   It is self explanatory.

   I trust you will see it gets to Emma (as today I have no printer, and this cannot wait) and whoever needs to see it at Court 2922 or elsewhere.

   I thank you for your time and look forward to your acknowledgment that you have delivered it to Emma and whomever else.

   Your sincerely
   Xxxxxxxx

   On 26/02/2019 15:05, XXXX XXXXXXXX wrote:

       Good afternoon Khalid,

       Other than being given legal advise on 28,02,2019 I still have had no reply to the points that I made on the 28,01,2019.

       I require you tell me:
       1. Who has offered me this legal advice?
       2. In what capacity are they offering this legal advice?
       3. What company do they work for?
       4. What is their position within this company?
       5. Where do they get their authority to offer legal advice
       a. the Company/Corporation?
       b. the Person?

       Furthermore; on this day 26,02,2019 I have sent [Notice: Verification Required] to:
       Emma Arbuthnot
       Senior District Judge
       181 Marylebone Road
       London
       NW1 5BR
       DX 120551, Marylebone 9

       Please find attached:- NOTICE REMOVAL OF IMPLIED RIGHT OF ACCESS.pdf
       If you will kindly pass this on to any/all organisation/s that may be inclined to visit the property mentioned (in the notice) regarding this matter.
       As I have no email for Marston Holdings or idea of who else may be/have been involved.

       Kind regards
       xxxxxx

       On 29/01/2019 09:12, Mahmood, Khalid wrote:

           Good Morning XXXXXX,

           

           I have spoken to our legal team here reference to your inquiry, please see their response below.

           

           Regards,

           

           Khalid Mahmood | Case Preparation | Phone:0121 212 6336 | Email:Khalid.Mahmood3@justice.gov.uk |
           Birmingham Magistrates Court |Victoria Law Courts| Corporation Street | Birmingham | B4 6QA |

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           Subject: RE: Liability Order | SCIN: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

           

           Dear Khalid,

           

           Please advise Mr XXXXXX to seek independent legal advice as to how to appeal  the decision made by the magistrates’ court. There are no grounds to warrant the matter being re-listed back in the magistrates’ court.

           

           

           

           Good Afternoon,

           

           Please can you assist with the below.

           

           Regards,

           

           Khalid Mahmood | Case Preparation | Phone:0121 212 6336 | Email:Khalid.Mahmood3@justice.gov.uk |
           Birmingham Magistrates Court |Victoria Law Courts| Corporation Street | Birmingham | B4 6QA |

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           Here is how HMCTS uses personal data about you.

           

           From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX]
           Sent: 28 January 2019 14:40
           To: CasePrepBirmingham <CasePrepBirmingham@Justice.gov.uk>
           Subject: Liability Order | SCIN: XXXXXXXXXXX
           Importance: High

           

           Dear Sir or Madam,

           Regarding the Liability Order:

           I respectfully request to appeal the Liability Order and have the following points/requests if you can please oblige or advise where you can't:

           1. I have not seen the liability order, only two letters from Child Maintenance Enforcement Team claiming a Liability Order has been granted along with what appear to be photocopies of said Liability Order and a page offering financial advise on how to make payments.

           2. I have no legal proof that there is a debt owed. There are discrepancies on the amounts that are allegedly being claimed. I wish to request:
               a, A copy of the sworn statement by the (Authorised Assistant to the) Justices' Clerk.
               b, Proof of the debt, evidence that the CMS have paid funds to the Parent with Care.
               c, Accounts showing all payments hitherto made to the Parent with Care.

           3. That the Clerk who issued the summons provides me with their documentation to show they scrutinised the sworn statement provided by an employee of the CMS/CMEC, in accordance with Justice Clerks Rules 2005 (S.I.2005 No.545).

           4. As a matter of urgency, a letter dated 22nd Jan 2019 was posted through the door, from an enforcement agent: Andy Carlton of marston holdings. He states he will be back within 10 days if he is not contacted. Would you advise him that you have received this email? Please confirm if you will do this. His number is XXXXXXXXX. Their reference # XXXXXXX.
               a, What is the current situation regarding the enforcement agent calling again?

           5. I contacted the court before the hearing (please see email below) and would like to ask why the adjournment was not granted?

           On 23/08/18 10:29, XXXXXXXXXXXXX wrote:

               Dear Sir or Madam,

               I am unable to attend tomorrows hearing as I have no funds to enable me to travel / get there.

               I had been promised early payment on work done but this has not materialised.

               I request adjournment.

               Regards
               Xxxxx

               NI: XXXXXXXXX

           6. If I am to attend Court, could you please make it in the closest Court to XXXXXXXXXX?

           I will be emailing the CMS for disclosure on any of the above points you cannot assist me with.

           Kind regards and I look forward to hearing from you soon,
           Xxxxx

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