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A History of Rates

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A History of Rates

Post by Ferry Man on Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:26 pm

Lets look at rates and let us look into what they are, who collects them and who should be liable to pay them:

It seems in respect the thread on Wards that we start our research from around the same time as Birth Certificates became the norm from their predecessor the settlement certificate and the relationship these had to the poor laws and other statutory acts this will take us to the General Rate Act.

I am throwing this out there and if any of you are interested in serious and proper study, I hope you will take this and run with it, it has helped me solve a lot and comprehend a lot, but I don't have the hours free to go through explaining it all - if the Mods would not mind keeping this as a dedicated thread pursuant the Title of the post, one would appreciate it.  

Accountability of Local Authorities in England and Wales, 1831-1935 ...

Excerpt from page 37: " An Act to provide for the better Distribution of the Charge for the Relief of the Poor in Unions" (29th June 1863)

Well you will have to wait seven days to get the links I am afraid, if I am still here ..who knows the morrow.


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Re: A History of Rates

Post by assassin on Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:59 am

I worked it backwards from today, and I totally agree that it is too important an issue to ignore, and it gives many answers to some important questions.

I went back to Roman times and punative taxes.
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Re: A History of Rates

Post by Ferry Man on Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:15 am

I am going to reboot this thread elsewhere, I just realised its in the latest news section, I also feel I should have been a bit clearer as to why Rates are connected to another or other forms of law being operated in Courts and used by Property Holders (we are not the 'recognised' property holders in this case).

Honey aisle thanks for the interest but I am not sure what your getting at with that post, going off course just a tad.

Pointer: use statutory definitions or supreme court cited definitions, you have no standing, right nor authority to define interpret or cite your own definitions that you think may be the ones that are relevant, I cannot emphasise that point enough.

The General Rate Act has its own definitions and that is all that we need, 99% of the populace are probably unable to read a statute correctly, and that is not because of some dark room of scriveners plotting to befuddle us all in their inns, it is simply that their are rules that have to be followed that are predicated on a good command of English grammar, syntax and sentence construction, these tools have been denied to the slumbering masses ... anyway.

Assassin: I think your reply was in response to another question on the wards thread about local authorities and law form, in any case by Authorative source, what I meant was a relevant law book, case law exposition or a statutory enactment.




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Re: A History of Rates

Post by Ferry Man on Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:37 am

Honeyaisle: I think you just proved my assertion correct, i am discussing statutes and you are discussing documents, really if you wish to argue the point on that, could you do it on your own thread, I know what I am going on about here and the Lords of the Supreme Court agree with me.

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Re: A History of Rates

Post by assassin on Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:12 pm

@Ferry Man wrote:I am going to reboot this thread elsewhere, I just realised its in the latest news section.

Assassin: I think your reply was in response to another question on the wards thread about local authorities and law form, in any case by Authorative source, what I meant was a relevant law book, case law exposition or a statutory enactment.




This was one of my points, and you did see it fortunately, everyone is arguing apples and pears. You argue with apples and they come back and argue with pears.
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Re: A History of Rates

Post by iamani on Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:23 pm

Hi all

All good stuff as per!

Honeyaisle - try David wynn miller and maybe jay gould on y.t.

Cheers!

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Re: A History of Rates

Post by assassin on Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:58 am

Honey, Oxford English dictionary is a good source of definitions of words and their interpretation and many such words are the foundation of law.
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Re: A History of Rates

Post by iamani on Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:25 am

Hey honeyaisle

You missed one..... ratings! Are they talking measures, or are they talking rank. As in a rather low rank in the sailing biz. As in shipping/being 'shipped' (and how close is that to 'chipped'?)As in maritime.

And has anyone noticed how interchangeable (at least anagogically) the words 'ward' and 'word' are?

Cheers!

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Re: A History of Rates

Post by Ferry Man on Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:39 am

I decided not to resume this thread from the OP because of a number of things, primarily because I don't think it is being taken seriously and I don't have the time to give my resources where it is not effective.

Iamani - rates as in the rate of pecuniary liability they attach to an account created in your NAME, I know there are parallel realms at work but it is no more unusual than the obvious definition in this case.

Honeyaisle, I think your being awkward for the sake of a general statement I made.

Definitions and Grammar/sentence structure are essential rules of statutory interpretation, these rules can be found in a reputable legal dictionary or some of the commissioned guides on the subject, yes the majority of state educated including grammar school people do not have this level of skill, the Supreme Court Judges follow the rules, so why shouldn't we, if we are to be on the same page ?.

Not that this should stop you reading the statute as advised, was you going to read it anyway ? I think not.

Far easier to have a dig at me than do some work isn't it, no idea how many people are members on this site or how many read these posts, but no one has asked a question about the very thing I have hinting towards yet.... I find that extraordinary and proof my effort to engage study and research is misplaced here.

I accept Its a general Forum and there is no guarantee of anything, which is why I will only assist by PM from now on, it allows me to weed out time wasters and those who are not trustworthy or simply looking for a power tussle.

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Re: A History of Rates

Post by assassin on Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:12 pm

Honey, there is nothing off beat as the OED is cited as source for much of our legislation and gives people the chance to work backwards and note the changes in words and how they applied, and how they were used as the foundation of law.
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Re: A History of Rates

Post by iamani on Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:14 pm

Hi all

It looks like you might be approaching the same subject from different angles. Kudos to you both for maintaining dignity whilst disagreeing. i do hope you'll be able to shake hands afterwards though, the site would be the poorer for the loss of either of you.

Ferry Man - i appreciate your chosen method of imparting information and i'm sure i'm not alone. It seems semi-socratic and encourages learning. If no-one has asked the right question yet, just keep hinting - someone will 'get it' at some point. Remember, as already pointed out everyone has different methods/understandings and different points of focus. But please don't let frustration stop you posting.

Honeyaisle - Thanks for putting that section up. Unfortunately i'm lazy (and not particularly focused on this subject) so who knows when i might have got round to it. i suspect the more money/control that a statute stands for, the more convoluted they make the wording. i got a headache as soon as i started reading it (and as i say, it's not something that 'grabs' me at the moment) so i just scanned most of it.

It does strike me though that a possible approach would be to 'remove' the value of the property (by placing it in trust?). That's just a leap of faith into a flight of fancy from a cursory glance - speculation. i'm sure there's plenty more encoded into it.

And thanks for that last link - i enjoy anything 'word'.

Just out of interest, do either of you give credence to the theory that statutes and such constitute 'spells'?

Cheers!

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Re: A History of Rates

Post by Ferry Man on Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:36 pm

Its the meaning of dwelling that should you be diligent, will open up the next door for you.

I am not sure if that part has been revised, but I notice a word change they have added, where a word of interest is changed while maintaining the same meaning, interesting that. You will at some point be putting the Secretary of State on notice when you are ready.

Yes these Statutes are not made easy for you to read, that is for sure, if you felt dizzy after just skimming over, imagine how I felt studying it hours at a time for best part of two months every day.... because sometimes the best place to hide something is in a word and dangle it in plain sight.

It is not possible to unravel this without spending the time to unlock the different connections, that is why I threw these parts out in a small dose, iamani you are correct in it being a little socratic... yes it has to be that way

This is the reason I wont engage with those who are not bothered to do their bit, like many of you I have a job, dependants, obligations to meet and liabilities to discharge, I am not mortgage free and lucky to have lots of free time to do all this, so I trust you understand why I don't wish to p**s about wasting my time, I am ending my forum comments there, those of you with the right attitude will get this eventually if you keep at it, I have done my bit, anything further is by private agreement.


Last edited by assassin on Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:29 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Language)

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Re: A History of Rates

Post by iamani on Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:05 pm

Hi Ferry Man

Thanks for the clues - your heart and attention are both clearly where they should be. Maybe in the future you will reconsider your decision to cease posting, i certainly hope so.

Good luck.

Cheers!

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Re: A History of Rates

Post by iamani on Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:40 pm

Hi honeyaisle

Excellent and thorough! i think we're playing in the same playground. i completely agree about the whole 'act' scenario, and i believe the same team who wrote 'Shakespeare's' stuff wrote legislation.

So we have three 'acts' to a 'play' - status, adjudication and judgement. Did you know there is a fourth? Check out the first four lines of CQV 1666 Act. Now THAT is a 'spell' if ever i saw one! And a good example of multi-mask wearing.....

Cheers!

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Re: A History of Rates

Post by iamani on Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:25 am

Hi honeyaisle

Somebody put some thought into that verse! i enjoyed the comments too, thanks.

Cheers!

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Re: A History of Rates

Post by assassin on Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:15 pm

Yes you are wrong and for the same reasons as the other site never formed a conclusion, and it is because only the original author can define words and there meanings and the context in which they were/are used as a pure and true meaning.

You have admitted that you have A level English and ought to know to know that the meaning of a word is partially defined by the context, and that context is only a series of clues to give the true meaning of a word, and this uses a syntax to lay out the language to give a portrayal; so at best you are interpreting and defining clues and guessing what the original author means and are always wrong, but why? In law everything is based upon first hand knowledge and by using the language by guessing you can never truly define a word and its meaning as it is written for a corporate sole to be used by a human soul to interprete and translate back to the corporate sole, so it is designed that way so you have to have a true definition from an authority.

This is why people should revert back to the OED as it defines words and their meanings and was used as the basis for all laws, it goes back in time and defines those words at that time, it also gives the variants of those words and how they have evolved and had their meanings changed or altered over time to give a wider range of; or different meanings as language changes.

Law dictionaries obfuscate and create more confusion and by their very nature are designed to do so, they only ever give a judged definition of a specific word under a specific set of circumstances (context) and at a specific time. They also work to give legalese meanings to a word to create even more confusion to force people to a court (authority) who can make these meanings or change them under the corporate sole as they only ever act on the corporate while you are flailing around under common misconception.

Judges make rulings based on evidence taken from first hand knowledge and give their judgement which is little more than them defining a specific word under a differing set of curcumstances and using a differing syntax, and judgement means little more than interpreting.
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