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The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

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The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by ceylon on Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:24 am

The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/pdf/protocols/pre-action-protocol-for-debt-claims.pdf
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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by daveiron on Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:48 am

Thanks for that.
Downloaded & printed

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by Phillpots on Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:52 am

I assume this is good news but someone will correct me if I am wrong. Will this effect the three letter process and everthing else like estoppel?

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by Jinxer on Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:24 am

I haven't a clue how to read these things but to a simpleton like me it looks as if the claimant won't be needing to supply signed agreements anymore but will only have to show statements of account.

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by ceylon on Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:25 am

DONE BY THEM FOR THEM
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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by daveiron on Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:49 am

Section 5.2 If the debtor requests a document or information,the creditor must-
(a) provide the document or information ,or

(b) explain why the document or information is unavailable,within 30 days of receipt of the request.

of course the definition of must is a different matter .

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by Waffle on Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:28 am


3.1 The creditor should send a Letter of Claim to the debtor before proceedings are started. The Letter of Claim should –

(a)contain the following information –

(iv) where the debt arises from a written agreement, the date of the agreement, the parties to it and the fact that a copy of the written agreement can be requested from the creditor;

5.2 If the debtor requests a document or information, the creditor must –

(a) provide the document or information; or

(b) explain why the document or information is unavailable,

within 30 days of receipt of the request.

Ive only been waiting since November 2016 for my written agreement and any document referred to within it

6.1 If the parties still cannot agree about the existence, enforceability, amount or any other aspect of the debt, they should both take appropriate steps to resolve the dispute without starting court proceedings and, in particular, should consider the use of an appropriate form of Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR).

6.2 ADR may simply take the form of discussion and negotiation, or it may involve some more formal process such as a complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service where the dispute concerns a debt regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by Jinxer on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:13 pm

(b) explain why the document or information is unavailable,

That's the bit that concerns me, will that mean they won't have to supply the documents but just give an explanation as to why the documents are not available and the Court will accept that.

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by daveiron on Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:55 pm

Hi jinxer,

That i think is why we will need to demand a signed statement that its never been sold / traded or subject to an insurance claim. ( I do this already) & as we know thats exactly what they have done.

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by bigend on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:55 am

Hi daveiron
you recently directed me on this and will follow but are our creditors legally obliged to reply?

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by daveiron on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:35 pm

Hi bigend,
Probably not ,but its certainly something i would also ask for in court. Its like what is asked for in the three letters ,they never provide that either.

My thinking is that if the answer to those 2 questions is no ,then what reason would there be not to answer ?

The more relevant questions they refuse to answer ,the less likely they can produce proof of claim, and may well be more reluctant to pursue the matter.
I can only state that it has worked for me along with a letter from me claiming that I own nothing & hold title to nothing. They have never even requested any proof ,just stated that the debt is uninforceable .



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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by bigend on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:04 pm

daveiron
That`s most encouraging .However and please forgive me for picking, does n`t this new protocol seem to imply that after Oct. their proof can rest on statements they can produce (should they say by 30 days that other docs like cca requested are lost or destroyed etc)?
I can`t work out if ruling is going to apply to pre 2007ccs?

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by daveiron on Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:20 pm

Hi bigend,

Thats the reason i add those two additional questions .We are all aware that they sell / trade the agreements and make insurance claims etc. So who in their corporation is willing to sign a statement denying they have done just that ,because if ever the opposite was proved they will not only be guilty of perjury if it went as far as court ,but the corporation would have committed fraud .Now would they risk it ?

Mine was for just under 5K ,pre 2007 & i am not a homeowner. If this applies to you also I am more than willing to put up the letter i sent to get rid of it.

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by LionsShare on Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:20 pm

How would this work for pay by endorsement for gas/leccy?  I know the tear off slip is a commercial instrument but regarding demands of proof of claim, would demanding to see accounting to show how they incurred a loss work here?
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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by daveiron on Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:35 pm

Sorry I don't know the answer to that.
My strategy is to keep the individual who sends letters to me to take liability for what they send ,because the signature carries the liability .Thats why I always demand a signature ,because as we all know a letter / document unsigned is just a piece of paper ,nothing more.
As far as i am concerned ,hiding behind the corporation is no longer acceptable.

It will be interesting after October to see how much the courts will go along with their claims that we have lost / cannot find documents etc.

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by bigend on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:48 pm

daveiron
much appreciate your coments etc and see the point you make -it comes down to liability again -they`re liars but wont swear to it!
my situation similar to yours so all help welcome.

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by daveiron on Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:58 am

Hi bigend,
As i don't know how to download a document here ,i will just retype it.


PRA GROUP                                                                 XXXXXXXXXX
WELLS HOUSE                                                             XXXXXXXXX
15-17 ELMFIELD RD.                                                     XXXXXXXXX
BROMLEY                                  
KENT
BR1 1LT


6th February 2017                                                    

F.a.o.  xxxxxxxxx xxxx

Dear xxxxxx xxxxxx
I am in receipt of your letter dated 31st January 2017 & received 3rd February 2017.

Take notice I reject and rebut your assumption/presumption that I owe your corporation  money.
As I do not intend to engage in letter ping pong with you I will make my position clear,you should
read this letter fully and carefully.
On the 18th January 2016 I requested from xxxxxx(OC) a copy of my original agreement,Their response
was " We are unable to provide you with the information you have requested" Again on the 18th April
-3rd May and the 13th May 2016.
 XXXXXX were informed on all occasions that I would pay
any and all money I may lawfully owe to them upon proof of claim.They have also been served with a
notice of irrevocable estoppel by acquiescence and a section 10 notice of the Data Protection Act
1998.Therefore take notice,no proof of claim has ever been provided to me by xxxxxxxx.
I am therefore somewhat bemused that if proof of claim existed xxxxxx would have provided it and
been paid in full instead of selling alleged debt for pennies in the pound to bottom feeding scum.

Take notice that if you wish to continue with this matter I will require from you all of the following:

Copy Of Deed of Assignment,Not Notice of Assignment.
Copy of Deed of Novation.
Signed statement from a named individual from xxxxx(OC) stating that no insurance claim has or will
be made in respect of this account.

Should you wish to send a collection agent or enforcement agent you will be required to supply
the following;
A fully compliant risk assessment
A fully compliant method statement  
Details of your liability Insurance
Details of their Liability Insurance.

Also take notice this address is private property and as such,recording,both visual and or audio
is forbidden.Should you however wish to send an agent to this address you must beforehand write
to make an appointment enclosing a payment of £ 100.00 to cover my time as I do not work for free.

Should an agent attend this address without full compliance to my terms and conditions,their
implied rights of access will immediately and permanently be removed.

You may also wish to note that I do not own this or any other dwelling,I do not own a vehicle.
All items,goods & property in or upon the land known as xxxx xxxxx xxxxxx or any other location
are not owned by me and I hold title to nothing.Also that I do not now or in the future require credit.

I look forward to your Lawful proof of claim.

All contact is recorded,
I require all correspondence to be signed by a named individual who takes liability for its contents.
Implied admission absent a response and compliance.


                                                                                              By  


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feel free to use any / all of the above .
The response i got from them was the usual ,you owe the money ,we deem this debt to be uninforceable.

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by LionsShare on Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:06 pm

@daveiron wrote:Sorry I don't know the answer to that.
My strategy is to keep the individual who sends letters to me to take liability for what they send ,because the signature carries the liability .Thats why I always demand a signature ,because as we all know a letter / document unsigned is just a piece of paper ,nothing more.
As far as i am concerned ,hiding behind the corporation is no longer acceptable.

It will be interesting after October to see how much the courts will go along with their claims that we have lost / cannot find documents etc.
thanks for your reply, if & when things get that bad for me will let all know what happens.

Again thanks.
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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by bigend on Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:48 am

Daveiron
Do you not think that  your 2 questions are going to prove to be the Achilles Heel for the OC` and Dca`s -and will  probably be more effective initially   than having to use the 3 letters (invaluable though they are)   and particularly in light of the new ruling on the  pre action court protocol, due in Oct?  Your questions   kill the issue dead  from the very start.If they cannot  answer trustfully  ( ie reveal they are trying to pursue  a non existent debt ), then they cannot answer at all and  any attempt to justify a claim is thwarted?
Also great letter, thanks for your time on this Smile

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by daveiron on Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:33 pm

Hi bigend,

You are very welcome.

I would still use the three letters ,my additions i hope will add greater impact ,and in the event it should go to court ,these are even more valid questions they are refusing to answer.
I think they are getting wise re the 3 letters ,where people are just copying them word for word and are then lost for what to do then .Absolutely use what is in the 3 letters ,ask additional questions ,give the appearance they are not going to get an easy ride.

Of course the object of the exercise is as always to avoid it getting to the court stage and i believe this will help.

Like all predators they will go after the weak & the vulnerable first ,let them see you are not in that group.

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by bigend on Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:39 pm

Thanks ,you motivate !( Why are you not a Moderator?) Smile

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by Jinxer on Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:22 pm

@bigend wrote:Thanks ,you motivate !( Why are you not a Moderator?) Smile
I thought he was a moderator. He has the smurf blue colour.

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by handle on Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:31 pm

In a nutshell, does a creditor need a copy of the original agreement (not a reconstituted one)?

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by Jinxer on Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:31 pm

I don't think they will even need a reconstructed agreement now, just a statement of account.

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Re: The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice. The Protocol comes into force on 1 October 2017

Post by handle on Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:25 pm

I cant see where you get that view

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