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RBS Credit Cards

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Post by daveystoat Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:47 am

Hi All, some of you may remember my great long thread on the old site, regarding a couple of credit card 'debts' RBS were chasing me for. I had a lot of help from the forum with it, especially Faljay. I thought you might like to know what the outcome was... but first a brief recap

Two credit cards had got a bit out of control - one was for just under £11,000, the other was just under £5,000 which they were demanding from me.

Did the three letter/Estoppel Notice to RBS for both, they ignored and sent DCs after me, including Wescot and Capquest, the first of which in each case also had the three letter process done. Eventually they each gave up.

I heard nothing on the smaller of the two alleged debts after October 2016 when the third DCA (Wescot) gave up. So RBS pretty much gave up on that one.

It went quiet on the larger one until January 2017, when I got a letter from Wescot threatening court action. I wrote back saying I took their letter as a letter before action, and would request a Stay until they could produce the Credit Agreement were they to proceed.

Heard nothing more until mid-late May 2017. Basically saying Wescot were going to get Drydens Fairfax to take me to court. So I wrote back and pointed out the error of their ways, to which they replied they were 'asking RBS for their observations'. About a month later I get a letter back from RBS which said "The credit agreement was was misfiled, and we have searched our records and cannot find it" followed by "the credit agreement is not void", They then surpassed themselves by saying "we cannot enforce it, but we will still chase you".
I replied to RBS, the main part of which said:
"So, to sum up then, you have admitted there is no credit agreement available, which you would need to prove your claim in a court of law, and that you cannot enforce it. You are subject to a legally binding agreement and a notice debarring you from taking any further action. Yet you still continue to harass me for this unlawful alleged debt.
Any further requests from RBS for this unlawful alleged debt will be considered to be harassment, and I will consider taking legal action against you under the Protection From Harassment Act 1997.
As you have no way of lawfully compelling me to pay the unlawful alleged debt you purport I owe, really the best thing RBS can do is to cease all further attempts at collection. I look forward to receiving written confirmation that you will be doing this."

Two days later I got a letter from Drydens Fairfax saying they were proceeding with court actions, they got a long letter pointing out the factual errors in their letter, and a copy of RBS' letter saying they couldn't produce the credit agreement and couldn't enforce it, and that I would request a Stay until they documents they would need were produced. Wescot got a similar letter, where I went to town on them and said (among other things): "You have no hope of winning this case. I must also reiterate to you that I am not intimidated by your continued harassment, though I have to admire your persistence (or maybe blind arrogance or stupidity). Most people with any sense and an inability to produce any evidence to support their claim would have given up a long time ago. I also take exception to you wasting my time having to repeatedly write to you pointing out the error of your ways and repeating that you have no chance of succeeding due to the lack of any evidence."  

One week later - this was the end of June by now - I had a letter from Wescot stating "RBS have asked us to close our file. If you have any further queries, please contact RBS"

It was a massive relief. I want to thank everyone who helped me, particularly Faljay if he can see this.


Last edited by daveystoat on Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by LionsShare Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:40 am

this IS definately 1 for the success forumn!

WELL DONE! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Post by daveystoat Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:47 am

Thank you :-). It was a case of never giving up really, but I couldn't have done it without the original site's help

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Post by Prometheus Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:34 am

Wonderful news - fantastic
would love to see your letters if you can post up Daveystoat
Loved Faljay - hope we get him back
Well done everybody on this forum - you are ahead of your time

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Post by daveystoat Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:49 am

This was the letter from RBS saying they couldn't find the Credit Agreement:
"Thank you for your letter, which was received into this office on 26 May 2017. I apologise for the delay in responding to you.
We regret to advise that the card agreement has been misfiled and despite searching our records we have been unable to locate it.
ln the circumstances, we accept that we are not able at present to comply fully with your request made undersection 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act (CCA) and therefore, pursuantto section 78 (6) of the CCA, we are not able to enforce the agreement until such time as we are able to compty'rvith section 78 (1).
Although the credit agreement is currently unenforceable, the credit agreement is not void and the obligations to make payments to us under the credit agreement remain. As previously advised in our default letter the account will continue to show as a default and will be reported to the Credit Reference Agencies, as we are legally entitled to do, under the terms of the credit card agreement, Please note that if we do not receive the required payments as requested on the monthly statements, we may take such action as is legally permitted to pursue the outstanding debt,
I trust this clarifies the matter for you, however, if you have any further queries relating to your section 78 (1) request please contact us in writing at the above address."


Last edited by daveystoat on Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:07 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by daveystoat Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:50 am

Here was my reply to that:
"Thank you for your letter dated 15th June 2017, the contents of which are noted and rebutted in their entirety.

Further to previous communications on this matter, I will repeat for at least the fourth time I am happy to negotiate mutually acceptable repayment arrangements for any alleged debt, as long as the alleged debt can be validated as lawful with documentary evidence. Despite no less than three separate requests from myself for RBS to provide this documentary evidence (and a further three to the debt collection agencies you have asked to unlawfully harass me), it has not been supplied to me.

I do not accept that the debt you purport I owe is in any way lawful. You cannot provide the documentation I have requested at least six times, and admit that there is no enforceable agreement – your letter actually contradicts itself when it says the ‘credit agreement is unenforceable, the credit agreement is not void’. There is no credit agreement because you claim to have ‘misfiled’ it. Furthermore, we are in a legally binding tacit agreement that the alleged debt either is not lawful, has been settled, or never existed in the first place. The alleged debt is also subject to a legally binding Notice of Irrevocable Estoppel by Acquiescence. (the ‘Estoppel Notice’) in relation to this account, which is a legal document stating that RBS can take no further action in this matter, as you have tacitly agreed, by the lack of validation of the lawfulness of any debt you allege.

So, to sum up then, you have admitted there is no credit agreement available, which you would need to prove your claim in a court of law, and that you cannot enforce it. You are subject to a legally binding agreement and a notice debarring you from taking any further action. Yet you still continue to harass me for this unlawful alleged debt.

Any further requests from RBS for this unlawful alleged debt will be considered to be harassment, and I will consider taking legal action against you under the Protection From Harassment Act 1997.

As you have no way of lawfully compelling me to pay the unlawful alleged debt you purport I owe, really the best thing RBS can do is to cease all further attempts at collection. I look forward to receiving written confirmation that you will be doing this. "


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Post by Prometheus Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:51 am

brilliant -thank you

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Post by daveystoat Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:53 am

Here is the one sent to Drydens Fairfax (or 'drydensfairfax' as they like to call themselves):

Thank you for your letter dated 19th June 2017, threatening me with court action over an alleged debt.
I must first point out that your letter contains a number of factual errors.
Aside from the inconsistency of referring to your client as both National Westminster Bank plc and Royal Bank Of Scotland plc, the first one is regarding my complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service. My complaint was that The Royal Bank Of Scotland plc (hereafter referred to as RBS in the interests of brevity) had treated my DISPUTE of their alleged debt as a complaint. It was never a complaint, and was always and only a DISPUTE of the lawfulness of the alleged debt. Despite admitting that this was what RBS had done, the Financial Ombudsman Service, bizarrely and illogically, did not uphold my complaint to them. I did not agree with their decision and I am therefore not bound by it. I must make it absolutely clear that it was not about the alleged debt itself, only that my dispute had been incorrectly handled. RBS, for reasons best known to themselves, have interpreted this as the alleged debt being properly owing. I do not acknowledge that there is any lawful debt here.
I have stated all along that I am willing to negotiate mutually acceptable repayment arrangements for any alleged debt, as long as that alleged debt can be verified as lawful, by the production of the appropriate documentation, as follows:
1. Validation of the debt (the actual accounting);
2. Verification of your claim against me (a sworn affidavit or a hand signed invoice in accordance with The Bills of Exchange Act (1882) );
3. A copy of the contract signed by both parties and therefore binding both parties.
4. Please also provide me with a true and certified copy (NOT photocopy) of the Original Note (Credit Agreement), under penalty of perjury and with unlimited liability and confirm that this Note, has never been sold. Please also confirm the name of the individual who is the duly authorised representative from your company, who has carried out due diligence under The Money Laundering Regulations 2007 and what actions s/he has taken in relation to this account.

I have requested this information from both RBS and Wescot Credit Services Ltd (hereafter referred to as ‘Wescot’, again in the interest of brevity) three times each, six requests in total, and they have both failed to produce it. I have enclosed copies of the letters written to both parties for information. You will note that these letters form a tacit agreement that the alleged debt is not lawful if it cannot be validated with the evidence I have requested, and that both Wescot and RBS will take no further action.
Because of the failure of either party to produce the documentation they would need to validate the alleged debt as being lawful, RBS and Wescot have also both been served with separate legally-binding Notices of Irrevocable Estoppel by Acquiescence (the ‘Estoppel Notice’), meaning that they are both, legally, barred from further attempts to collect the debt they allege, and must immediately cease all collection activities. Both parties have chosen to ignore the agreement and Estoppel Notice, putting them in breach of FCA regulations. Please find enclosed copies of these for information.
I have also received a letter from RBS (again, copy enclosed), which clearly states that they are unable to produce the credit agreement (they claim it has been misfiled), and also admits that it is unenforceable legally.
This matter is still in dispute with RBS and they have now breached FCA regulations by involving a third party, Wescot. Their, and your, threat of legal action is also in breach of FCA regulations, However, as you appear insistent on proceeding, please see below.
As you have indicated you are acting on behalf of The Royal Bank Of Scotland plc in this action, I assume you are authorised to accept service of documentation, therefore, please accept this request for Information sufficient to understand the claim being threatened and as such is in accordance Section 3 of the Pre Action Conduct, by way of Service Upon You and your client.

As I have never entered into any Legal Agreement or Contract with your client, for any monies or specifically for the alleged amount of £10874.11; and I neither accept nor acknowledge the assertion any debt has been Legally and Absolutely Assigned to your client, I therefore, request the following documentation under Pre Action Conduct Section 6 (c) as proof of your Clients assertions of a Legal Obligation, to be provided to me within 40 days of the post marked date of this letter.

I. Pursuant to s.77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA1974) a copy of the Original Signed Consumer Credit Agreement, along with a copy of the original Terms & Conditions and any and all subsequent changes in said Terms & Conditions.

II. Statements of the Account referred to, including details of all payments made and calculation of how interest was charged against each item, leading to the Alleged Debt of £10874.11.

III. Also, as this is an Alleged Debt, I believe Default Charges may have been applied to the Account and as such may be unlawful under the Unfair Consumer Contract Terms Regulations 1999, therefore, I would request details of each and every Default Charge applied to the Account (i.e. if the charge was for ‘Administration’ what Administration was undertaken to support the Default Charge) along with details of any Interest Charged against each Default Charge applied.

IV. In accordance with Section 87.1 Of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (as amended) a copy of the Default Notice from the original owners of the Alleged Debt and Certified Copies of how this was served upon me.

V. A copy of the Legal / Absolute Assignment of the Agreement, including a copy of a Duly Executed Deed of Assignment and / or Deed of Tripartite Novation; and

VI. In accordance with Section 196 of the Law of Property Act 1925, Certified Copies of how I was served with the Alleged Legal Assignment.

VII. A copy of the Alleged Notice of Assignment sent by the original creditor to the Defendant and again, in accordance with Section 196 of the Law of Property Act 1925, Certified Copies of how this was Served upon me.

Should proceedings commence against me and your client fail to provide each and every document requested, I will make an Application to the Court to Stay your Clients claim until the request is complied with and request the Court impose Sanctions against yourself and your client for failure to adhere to the provisions of the above mentioned Practice Direction.

Also please be aware, each document listed is required to provide absolute and legal proof of your client’s contention of a legal indebtedness towards them and again, should your client fail to produce said documentation, and proceedings commence against me, I will apply to the Court to Stay your clients claim until said documentation is received.

As a part of my defence I will re-request production of each and every document under an appropriate Civil Procedure Rule, along with a request under CPR Part 39.a (3.3) for the original of every document upon which you intend to rely be brought to any subsequent hearing for examination.

Please note, where I have mentioned a document and there is in your clients possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

Therefore, as RBS have admitted that there is no credit agreement for the alleged debt or one cannot be produced, and is therefore not enforceable, any action taken would have no chance of succeeding. Therefore, I look forward to receiving written confirmation that you will not be proceeding with this action. I await your response in due course."

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Post by daveystoat Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:54 am

And here is the one that Wescot got (probably my favourite of the lot):

Dear Interloper
I was somewhat surprised and disappointed this week to receive a letter from Drydens Fairfax Solicitors, threatening me with court action, particularly after my letters dated 6th January 2017 and 25th May 2017 advising you what would happen were you to persist with the folly of harassing me, for an alleged debt which has been agreed by RBS to be unlawful and is subject to a) a legally-binding agreement that it is unlawful, and b) a legally-binding Notice of Irrevocable Estoppel By Acquiescence. My surprise and disappointment is that you are still choosing to continue to waste your time and efforts with this matter.
I must remind you that this alleged debt is unlawful because the following documentation has, despite numerous requests to RBS, Wescot Credit Services Ltd, and numerous other debt collection agencies, not been forthcoming:
1. Validation of the debt (the actual accounting);
2. Verification of your claim against me (a sworn affidavit or a hand signed invoice in accordance with The Bills of Exchange Act (1882));
3. A copy of the contract signed by both parties and therefore binding both parties.
4. A true and certified copy (NOT photocopy) of the Original Note (Credit Agreement), under penalty of perjury and with unlimited liability and confirm that this Note, has never been sold. Please also confirm the name of the individual who is the duly authorised representative from your company, who has carried out due diligence under The Money Laundering Regulations 2007 and what actions s/he has taken in relation to this account.

I have consistently stated that I am happy to negotiate mutually agreeable repayment arrangements for any debt I might lawfully owe. I would remind you that, for any attempt to compel me to pay this alleged debt by legal action to be successful, you would need to produce all of the documentation listed above to prove your case against me. Now, as this documentation has not been supplied, your case against me has no chance of succeeding. There is also no chance of a lawful credit agreement being produced as RBS have finally admitted that they are unable to produce it, in a letter dated 15th June 2017 (copy attached for information). This is evidence that has already been supplied to Drydens Fairfax Solicitors, along with a letter describing what will happen should they continue to proceed with any legal action against me – I will apply to the court for a Stay until all of the documents they need to prove their case are produced, which, as RBS cannot produce them, will be indefinite.
Therefore, you have no hope of winning this case. I must also reiterate to you that I am not intimidated by your continued harassment, though I have to admire your persistence (or maybe blind arrogance or stupidity). Most people with any sense and an inability to produce any evidence to support their claim would have given up a long time ago. I also take exception to you wasting my time having to repeatedly write to you pointing out the error of your ways and repeating that you have no chance of succeeding due to the lack of any evidence. Should I need to write to you again, I will be billing you for my time at £1000 per letter.
It is long past the point where Wescot Credit Services should have given up with this matter. You must IMMEDIATELY instruct Drydens Fairfax Solicitors to cease all proceedings against me. Failure to do so within seven calendar days of this letter will result in a) complaints to the Financial Conduct Authority against Wescot Credit Services Ltd and RBS for persistent harassment, b) a complaint against Drydens Fairfax Solicitors to the Solicitors Regulation Authority for harassment, and c) legal action against RBS, Wescot Credit Services, and Drydens Fairfax Solicitors under the Protection From Harassment Act 1997. Furthermore, I will reiterate that you do not have my permission to use, or pass on to a third party (in this case Drydens Fairfax Solicitors) any of my contact details, including but not limited to, mobile and landline telephone numbers, and postal and email addresses. I must again demand that you remove them from your systems and records immediately.
I look forward, therefore, to receiving written confirmation that a) you will be instructing Drydens Fairfax Solicitors to drop all proceedings against me, b) their written confirmation that they will not be taking any further action against me, and c) that Wescot Credit Services Ltd will taking no further action in this matter. "

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Post by daveystoat Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:23 am

Update on this - having heard nothing regarding the smaller of these two alleged debts (just under £5000) since October 2016, yesterday I had a letter from RBS asking me to contact them urgently regarding it. Bit of a surprise after nearly two and a half years. They got this by return:

"Dear Sir or Madam,

Thank you for your letter dated 10th January 2019, the contents of which are noted and rebutted in their entirety.

Further to previous communications relating to this account, I was somewhat surprised and bemused to receive your letter stating that you ‘need to speak to me urgently’ regarding my account, not least because it has been nearly two-and-a-half years since I was last contacted by yourselves or a third party debt collection agency regarding it. I had thought you had done the right, and your legally obligated thing, and ceased all attempts at collection, which you must now do.

I would like to remind you that, in my previous correspondence, I requested, no less than three times, the documentation you would need to validate the debt you allege and purport I owe as being lawful, namely:
 
1. Validation of the debt (the actual accounting);
2. Verification of your claim against me (a sworn affidavit or a hand signed invoice in accordance with The Bills of Exchange Act (1882) );
3. A copy of the contract signed by both parties and therefore binding both parties.
4. A true and certified copy (NOT photocopy) of the Original Note (Credit Agreement), under penalty of perjury and with unlimited liability and confirm that this Note, has never been sold. Please also confirm the name of the individual who is the duly authorised representative from your company, who has carried out due diligence under The Money Laundering Regulations 2007 and what actions s/he has taken in relation to this account.

Which you have not done.  I will remind you at this point that you would need this documentation to prove your case in a court of law. Should any legal action be attempted against me, I will request a Stay on the case until such time as they can be produced, which as you have not been able to so far, I would suggest the Stay would be indefinite. Furthermore, the three letters I wrote requesting this documentation formed a legally-binding agreement that the alleged debt either

a) has been paid in full
b) never existed, or
c) is not lawful


Accordingly, RBS were served, by recorded delivery, a Notice of Irrevocable Estoppel By Acquiescence dated 22nd February 2015. This, just in case you were unaware of its purpose, is a legal notice which legally debars RBS and any third party you may appoint (such as a debt collection agency) from any further attempts at collection.

I will also state that I am happy to negotiate full repayment of any debt I might lawfully owe.

I must also make clear that RBS DO NOT have my permission to pass ANY of my contact details to any third party, such as a debt collection agency. This includes, but is not limited to, my postal address, email address, mobile telephone number and landline telephone number.

So, to sum up then, RBS cannot produce a credit agreement or any of the other documentation required, which you would need to prove your claim in a court of law, and because of that that you will not be able to lawfully enforce it. You are subject to a legally binding agreement and a notice debarring you from taking any further action. Yet you still continue to harass me for this unlawful alleged debt. You must immediately cease and remove all negatives (e.g. defaults) from my credit file.

I look forward, therefore to receiving written confirmation from you that no further action will be taken in this matter and that you will cease all further attempts at collection, including the involvement of any third parties in relation to it. Please note that should I need to write to you again regarding this matter, I will bill RBS for my time at a rate of £1000 per letter, and that you writing to me will constitute your agreement to paying this.

To end, I must make it clear that if I should receive ANY further demands for payment from either RBS or any third party debt collection agency you appoint, this will be deemed to be harassment on the parts of both RBS and the third party. This will result in legal action being taken against both parties under the Protection From Harassment Act 1997, as your actions are causing me stress, alarm, anxiety and distress.

I trust that clarifies matters."

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Post by daveystoat Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:03 pm

Update on this here:

https://goodf.forumotion.com/t4446-cabot-bought-old-debt#32572

Essentially, the smaller of the two credit cards is now statute barred, despite Cabot harassing me. since June 2020

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Post by daveystoat Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:06 pm

A further, and final, update on this (posted on the other thread) Cabot have finally given up as the last of these became statute barred, so they knew they wouldn't get anywhere. They put it in writing, which doubtless stuck in the craw rather. But that is it now for these, and my debt issues gone.

I would again like to thank everyone who helped me with this over the last few years. It was absolutely invaluable, and I couldn't have done it without you.

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Post by daveiron Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:29 pm

Great to hear,its clear from your posts that you were prepaired to put
the work in.
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Post by daveystoat Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:33 pm

Thank you, yes it needed doing. I had the time to do it and the help from this and the old site. The smaller of the two cards I thought was long gone until June last year, but it came back when Cabot got hold of it.

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Post by Mrblue2015 Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:19 pm

daveiron wrote:Great to hear,its clear from your posts that you were prepared to put
the work in.

As per DaveIron, and I have highlighted the KEY POINT above in bold for anyone reading this thread. If people simply copy and paste templates, they will not have success with the process.

Well done DaveyStoat!

(Moving this post to the 'Success Stories' section.
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Post by daveystoat Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:59 pm

Yes, the key things to fully understand are:
1) that without the validation documentation, there is no contract between you and the lender. This is the fundamental concept here
2) no contract = no lawful debt
3) Yes, you do have to put the work in. The template letters are good, and helpful, but these organisations don't give up easily, and will try to fight, intimidate, and threaten you until they wear you down and you give up. So you have to keep writing back to them and showing you know they are on to a loser. It becomes a battle of wills eventually.
4) This isn't for the faint-hearted, but sometimes you have to do these things. If you are strong enough, you will win out.
5) Obviously, these situations aren't something you would knowingly get yourself into (no sane person thinks "I know, I will run up huge debts I can't pay, it will be great to have big banks and debt collectors chasing me, and I just love having threatening letters from solicitors"), but sometimes you find yourself there. You have to do what you have to do.

To anyone still in the battle - be strong, keep going, ask for advice if you need to, and good luck.

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