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judges and original contracts to court

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judges and original contracts to court Empty judges and original contracts to court

Post by kicker on Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:06 pm

Thanks for info on my previous post in October but can I just ask still, does a dc purchaser need  necessarily to provide a court with  a true copy of  an   original  cc contract?
Sadly,  I`m getting info that judges  no longer bother about seeing them and will just be happy to accept statements and the dc purchaser's word as well any documents that show probability of a loan made -not always  require to see the  factual evidence of the loan as determined under the cca 1974?
If judges  are going to stubbornly ignore due process and just work on presumptiion ,the thing  which Daveiron  previously highlighted ,  then does this mean  it`s  now our word against the dc`s ? With what can  we  make rebuttal?
Sorry if my question comes across as a bit ingenuous but been out of circulation for some time on these issues.
( Credit Card prior 2006 , since  bought , been paying monthly since) .

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judges and original contracts to court Empty Re: judges and original contracts to court

Post by daveiron on Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:22 pm

Just my opinion for what its worth & you may get better advice.
I would make a strong point in my defense paperwork ,stating that the documentation required
under the Act has been requested and the claimant has been unable or unwilling to provide
such documentation and therefor has not provided a valid proof of claim as required by law.
I therefor reject and rebut any presumption brought by the claimant.

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judges and original contracts to court Empty Re: judges and original contracts to court

Post by Mrblue on Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:05 pm

Agree with DI. They HAVE to evidence not only that there was an original agreement (and it must be a true copy of the original agreement and MUST include Ts & Cs) and they also have to, at the very least, produce the default notice and the bank, credit card or loan statements.

If they have the agreement then this could prove you had credit in the past. So what? How does that prove anything is owed still (hence the default notice). And w/o statements etc, how can they prove how whatever sum it is that they are claiming is due, IS in fact due?

If not, then whats to stop me writing to DI or you (Kicker) and saying you owe me some money? See? I can't as I would never have the right docs (and appropriate docs) to evidence it.
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judges and original contracts to court Empty Re: judges and original contracts to court

Post by Stevro on Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:19 pm

In my recent case, the judge didn't need to see the original agreement to conclude I had an account that I defaulted on.

In court you will be asked if you dispute having had an account and defaulting on it. You could then lie under oath (which I wouldn't recommend as following questions could trip you up) but would then have to have a valid reason why you didn't report repayments being taken from your account if you didn't have a credit agreement.

A judge weighs up evidence which may or not be complete.

I agree a default notice is required.

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judges and original contracts to court Empty Re: judges and original contracts to court

Post by waylander62 on Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:43 pm

just because you had an account which you defaulted on does not mean that the agreement was enforceable !?

the agreement may have been unfair from the onset creating an unfair relationship !? the CCA was written to protect consumers and the OC must comply with the law.

so what if you had an account? the account was set up as an agreement between the bank and you with terms and conditions so what part of the agreement did you default on ? what term or condition of the agreement did you breach ?

judge was biased as usual knowing that you were an LIP

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judges and original contracts to court Empty Re: judges and original contracts to court

Post by Stevro on Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:03 pm

I had mentioned that the account was fairly recent so all paperwork was in order and supplied. Also HSBC have an internal litigation department which helped their case being in order.

My point was the judge only needed a copy of my contract and not the original in my case.

If you have a case to argue over accuracy and validity of a contract then fine. But in my very real experience, them not having an original contract won't win your case.

I could have said I didn't sign it or have an agreement etc but I couldn't lie.

You may find a better judge, a great defence lawyer or another argument in court. But in my case an original contract was a moot point.

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judges and original contracts to court Empty Re: judges and original contracts to court

Post by waylander62 on Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:20 pm

ah i see, they NEVER have to supply the original agreement with a wet ink signature, a genuine copy of the agreement will always be accepted.

if all paperwork was provided and in order then there is little or no room for you to move especially as it was the OC taking it to court

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judges and original contracts to court Empty Re: judges and original contracts to court

Post by Stevro on Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:43 pm

I'm happy to be corrected but reconstituted agreements have been accepted in court.

In my case, the judge simply asked me if I had an account, if I made payments and if I disputed the balance. I was there to argue that I owned the agreement and I created the money. The judge agreed that banks don't lend money but argued the contract is only an IOU. A promissory note.

As far as my argument re securitisation this didn't hold water. It's not illegal to securitise contracts. The bank is simply the administrator.

And the lawyer testified that insurance had never been claimed. Despite what we believe there is no proof they do this, that we can use in court.

I think the lawyer and judge were more surprised that I would make such foolish arguments. I didn't feel any conspiracy going on.

And to reiterate, I'm still £50k ahead thanks to the 3 letters. So far!

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judges and original contracts to court Empty Re: judges and original contracts to court

Post by waylander62 on Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:42 pm

???

the judge agreed the contract is only an IOU and that the banks dont lend you the money therefore the bank is an administrator of your contract and the funds that you created !?

mortgages are different but WHERE in the T & C's of this particular agreement did it give the bank power of attorney to do as they wish ?? answer is nowhere .

VERY VERY interesting transcript for this case i am sure.

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judges and original contracts to court Empty Re: judges and original contracts to court

Post by Stevro on Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:12 pm

Yes. It was an eye-opener.

He also agreed that no law allows banks to create money and no law forbids them either! This applies to digital money only not printed as the BOE produce that. Banks have to purchase that at face value.

He really 'schooled me' but I felt it was all very genuine. He challenged the lawyer's fees and their interest post-default, so appeared to be fair.

If the debt were sold on I'd have stood a much better chance as they possibly don't even have a reconstituted agreement.

Take my advice with a pinch of salt. My case was fairly unique I think.

As securitisation exists unchallenged then it's hard to fight it. I imagine that as a deposit in a bank can be invested elsewhere then 'renting' your contract is similar. Even though banks 'sell' contracts in tranches (bundles) they still take payments from you and pay dividends to the buyers. Which isn't illegal.

I challenged the banks for describing that they lend money and that my contract was fraudulent. That was shot down too as I received money.

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judges and original contracts to court Empty Re: judges and original contracts to court

Post by Stevro on Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:42 am

This is from Mr Blue from another thread and gives more detail on the entire process and how it typically works. As I said, I was a unique case i.e. new account so bank had all my paperwork, defending myself which may have made me vulnerable etc.

'Respectfully, your post demonstrates that you do not understand the purpose of the 3 letter system because if you read them, you would. They do work for their intended purpose which for the Debt Purchaser (DP) to:-

1. Give up
2. Sell on because they know they have no legal basis to their claim (and you repeat the process with the next DP)
3. (Very rare) Engage a solicitor on their behalf although a solicitor is in effect another (debt collection) agent.

Again, read the letters to digest their intended purpose. ..

They are not meant as court papers but they evidence that you have made every effort to remediate and (at least) 3 times.

In the rare case of 3. above, you move on from the 3 letters IF a solicitor explicitly sends you a 'Letter Before Action' (LBA) which forms part of 'Phase 2' (if, say, you refer to the 3 letter system as 'Phase 1') as part of the PRACTICE DIRECTION – PRE-ACTION CONDUCT AND PROTOCOLS (see link below).

They cannot escape the PRACTICE DIRECTION – PRE-ACTION CONDUCT AND PROTOCOLS and part of this process will enable you to (in response to the LBA) request evidence that any alleged debt exists i.e. exactly as is the case in the 3 letters process, only now in a formal capacity, as you are now dealing with a solicitor and within the scope of the PRACTICE DIRECTION – PRE-ACTION CONDUCT AND PROTOCOLS.

Then most DPs give up because they know: -

1) They do NOT have the evidence
2) You (as the person who is being claimed against) can demand the courts 'STAY' until the claimant produces evidence.

Then in all likelihood they'll 'go away...

I hope you're at last clear on where the '3 letter process' sits in all this and the specific intention in relation to the letters which always work in that relation. But the processes (Phase 1 and 2) MUST be followed 'religiously'.

PRACTICE DIRECTION – PRE-ACTION CONDUCT AND PROTOCOLS:

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/pd_pre-action_conduct'

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