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Claim from Insurance Company for Alleged Debt

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Post by catchablackrat on Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:20 am

Hi Guys

If i could garner some knowledge on the following matter i would be grateful, i think this could be helpful generally speaking as i know of this becoming a more and more frequent occurrence.

Ive had an insurance company contact me for payment by way of subrogation for an alleged amount owed by myself to a creditor who had taken out an insurance policy against the possibility of non-payment.

My understanding or at least what it would seem to me is that the insurance company are already paid by the creditor by way of monthly payments for example so would in effect be paid for a second time on anything they pay out to the creditor if successful in extracting payment from myself.

I suppose the question is would the 3 letters have the same effect? and are they applicable in this instance? Question Question Question

Thx
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Post by Mrblue2015 on Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:38 am

Good morning and welcome catchablackcat.

As much as I’d like to help you, I’m not sure in this particular case. Hopefully one of the other members will be able to provide some guidance.

Good luck!
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Post by daveiron on Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:31 am

Hi,
Waylander is probably the guy for the best advice on this.
In the meantime more info would be heplful.No need to go into specifics ,
just what its for ,how much is claimed (roughly) and anything else relevant.
The more general info you give ,the better you can be helped.
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Post by Mrblue2015 on Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:44 am

I'd second DI's response Smile Also, as DI says: "roughly" i.e. never use the exact sums / dates or any other personal info that could potentially give away your identity to a 'troll' (bank, DCA, solicitor etc) on here ;-)
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Post by catchablackrat on Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:01 pm

Hi

Thx for the help so far.

So in short my business went under and i ended up getting evicted from the place i was renting at the time and the landlord was insured against non-payment of rent, made a claim against the policy and now the insurers are coming at me for £6,700 odd..

Hope thats enough..

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Post by waylander62 on Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:28 pm

so the landlord took out the insurance policy 'just in case' you couldnt pay ?

you couldnt pay, therefore the landlord claimed on the policy ' the landlord' took out to cover themselves and the insurance company are now coming after you for the money !?

i am assuming you have nothing to do with the insurance policy ? and never entered into any agreement with anybody in respect of this policy ?

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Post by catchablackrat on Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:50 pm

You would be correct waylander62 in all aspects..

They are claiming the right due to subrogation

Thx

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Post by waylander62 on Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:55 pm

just i little more info.

was the business responsible for the rent payments ?

is the business still trading ?

are the insurance co. coming after the business or you as an individual ?

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Post by catchablackrat on Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:58 pm

@waylander62 wrote:just i little more info.

was the business responsible for the rent payments ?

is the business still trading ?

are the insurance co. coming after the business or you as an individual ?

The business was NOT responsible for the payments.

The business is NOT trading anymore.

The insurance company are coming after ME.

Thx W62

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Post by waylander62 on Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:09 pm

subrogation is a very complex area it allows the insurer to come after the 3rd party which caused the losses, but i am an unsure how this would work in respect of non payment of rent.

they have obviously written to you and told you that you are responsible for the sum due, this is a very very difficult one and i would need to see what the letter is actually saying.

i would also recommend you read up on subrogation and what it means and i would also consider 30 mins free consultation with a solicitor ( may point you in the right direction)

can you still contact the landlord ? will they speak with you ?

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Post by catchablackrat on Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:37 pm

@waylander62 wrote:subrogation is a very complex area it allows the insurer to come after the 3rd party which caused the losses, but i am an unsure how this would work in respect of non payment of rent.

they have obviously written to you and told you that you are responsible for the sum due, this is a very very difficult one and i would need to see what the letter is actually saying.

i would also recommend you read up on subrogation and what it means and i would also consider 30 mins free consultation with a solicitor ( may point you in the right direction)

can you still contact the landlord ? will they speak with you ?

Hi W62

From my understanding they would have to provide upon request that they are certified in this instance to subrogate..

Aside from that if the landlord has been paying the insurance company each month in the eventuality that a claim may arise then isnt the cost of a payout covered in the most basic sense (obviously details are unknown as to costs and structure of payments etc) and if thats the case what would be the I.Co standing as theyve been paid and thus in essence are "double dipping" like the rest of the scumbags, no-one technically is at a loss, again i say this without knowing the numbers as it were but you get my point..

This all happened at the start of 2018 and i received the very 1st notice from the insurance company on 8th January 2020

Thx

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Post by waylander62 on Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:25 pm

like i said this is a very tough one, the cost of a payout is covered but in respect of the I co. coming after you then appears they have a case unless the landlord included a waiver in his policy, which he would have had to have paid extra for so i will bet they didnt.

i get your point i really do, but this is britain and the lobbyists and corporate millionaires who run the country have got to the politicians to allow this sort of thing under their 'law', i mean the I. Co. probably only made a billion profit and paid little or no tax but they need your little sum !?

you need to likely start by looking at your tenancy agreement and probably asking for a copy of the insurance policy that gives them the right to chase you, as i said very very complex.

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Post by daveiron on Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:28 pm

I totally agree with waylander.You may find something in your tenancy agreement.
When I rented a factory for 20 + years ,the only rent rise in that time was for
the increased cost to the landlord for ins.On that basis us tenants were clearly paying for the cover to the landlord even though he was the one with an agreement with the ins co.

Dont suppose you were a limited co ?
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Post by catchablackrat on Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:06 pm

@daveiron wrote:I totally agree with waylander.You may find something in your tenancy agreement.
When I rented a factory for 20 + years ,the only rent rise in that time was for
the increased cost to the landlord for ins.On that basis us tenants were clearly paying for the cover to the landlord even though he was the one with an agreement with the ins co.

Dont suppose you were a limited co ?

Hi Mate

I was a limited company yes, to which it was folded around 9 months previous, i had enough savings to manage for that long but with the court case against the Insolvency Service which was the OR in the case work was hard to come by and it kind of built from there until i went pop, if that makes any sense at all Question Question

Thx guys, appreciate your assistance...

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Post by daveiron on Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:19 pm

I may well be wrong ,but is any of that rent owed down to the limited co. or is all of it after the limited company ceased trading?
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Post by assassin on Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:21 am

Very true, but the main question is; did the company take out the lease/rental of the property, or did you take it out?

If you personally took it out in your name then you are personally liable, if the company took it out in the companies name then the company is liable, any debt or alleged debt owed by the company should be forwarded to the receivers and they should allocate payments to all creditors.

Why are they coming after you? in simple terms the receivers will prioritise payments and obviously HMRC get the lions share of any remaining assets, followed by others in a line of priority and in reality most creditors will get very little or nothing, perhaps 1p in the £ if they are lucky. So, they come after you and get a lot more than 1% of nothing.
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Post by catchablackrat on Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:51 pm

@assassin wrote:Very true, but the main question is; did the company take out the lease/rental of the property, or did you take it out?

If you personally took it out in your name then you are personally liable, if the company took it out in the companies name then the company is liable, any debt or alleged debt owed by the company should be forwarded to the receivers and they should allocate payments to all creditors.

Why are they coming after you? in simple terms the receivers will prioritise payments and obviously HMRC get the lions share of any remaining assets, followed by others in a line of priority and in reality most creditors will get very little or nothing, perhaps 1p in the £ if they are lucky. So, they come after you and get a lot more than 1% of nothing.

Hi Assassin

Yes the rental was in my name, the company had been wound up previously, thats all fine, my original point i suppose is can i use the 3 letter system with a couple of tweeks relating to a request for proof they are certified to subrogate in this instance and proof of loss against the money deposited by the landlord for the service?

Thanks
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Post by assassin on Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:55 am

Yes.
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Post by catchablackrat on Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:03 pm

@assassin wrote:Yes.

Glad you said that because thats what i went ahead and did Laughing

Thx as always fellas

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Post by catchablackrat on Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:16 pm

@assassin wrote:Yes.

Hi Guys

I received a bailiff appointment via email, please see attached copy.  I also asked for an invoice/bill if im to pay them anything i allegedly owe, this was the response.

You have requested an invoice, there is no invoice as we have not provided goods or services to you.  The Court Order sets out the sums shown and the statement of account below shows the breakdown of the debt.

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Post by pitano1 on Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:41 pm

PCN issuing companies, local government councils and organisations who persist in demanding payment without responding to your BoEVAT Notice One with an invoice signed in wet ink are leaving themselves open to prosecution under the following Laws and legislation, and also to the associated penalties:

https://boevat.org.uk/supporting-legislation/
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Post by waylander62 on Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:51 pm

so there exists a court order !? has this already been before the courts ?

did the insurance company already take you to court for this alleged debt ? and win ?

i think we need the full information !?

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Post by flyingfish on Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:55 pm

Is the first you've heard of a court order, or indeed that it was even going to court?  If it's been to court and the court has found against you then you really have two choices.  You can see if you can get the order set aside, then prepare to defend the case.  Or you can negotiate a payment plan.  

Regarding the underlying cause of action, this sort of subrogation is pretty much standard unless the insurance company explicitly agreed a waiver.  They don't like to do that as it increases their risks, but in some specific cases they do agree some sort of limited waiver.  This would be negotiated or agreed between the insurer and the policy holder, but if nothing was stated either way then the right of subrogation would stand.

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Post by waylander62 on Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:01 pm

@flyingfish wrote:Is the first you've heard of a court order, or indeed that it was even going to court?  If it's been to court and the court has found against you then you really have two choices.  You can see if you can get the order set aside, then prepare to defend the case.  Or you can negotiate a payment plan.  

Regarding the underlying cause of action, this sort of subrogation is pretty much standard unless the insurance company explicitly agreed a waiver.  They don't like to do that as it increases their risks, but in some specific cases they do agree some sort of limited waiver.  This would be negotiated or agreed between the insurer and the policy holder, but if nothing was stated either way then the right of subrogation would stand.

agreed

which is why i suggested contacting the landlord/insurer and checking out the tenancy agreement as it may well be in there if there is a waiver. If there is no waiver then it will be difficult.

but now we have suggestions of court involvement.

so i think the full information is required.

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Post by catchablackrat on Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:30 pm

@waylander62 wrote:
@flyingfish wrote:Is the first you've heard of a court order, or indeed that it was even going to court?  If it's been to court and the court has found against you then you really have two choices.  You can see if you can get the order set aside, then prepare to defend the case.  Or you can negotiate a payment plan.  

Regarding the underlying cause of action, this sort of subrogation is pretty much standard unless the insurance company explicitly agreed a waiver.  They don't like to do that as it increases their risks, but in some specific cases they do agree some sort of limited waiver.  This would be negotiated or agreed between the insurer and the policy holder, but if nothing was stated either way then the right of subrogation would stand.

agreed

which is why i suggested contacting the landlord/insurer and checking out the tenancy agreement as it may well be in there if there is a waiver. If there is no waiver then it will be difficult.

but now we have suggestions of court involvement.

so i think the full information is required.

Thanks Guys

You have all the info mate, the first i have heard of any Court action is today in reply to my letter and email asking for the relevant evidence/information.

Ive tried to upload the bailiff appt but i keep having a message pop up saying i have 0mb left of upload space or something to that effect..

Thx
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