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Moon phases


BoEVAT council pcn - Traffic Tribunal

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BoEVAT council pcn - Traffic Tribunal - Page 2 Empty Re: BoEVAT council pcn - Traffic Tribunal

Post by midnight Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:11 pm

Maybe ask them for details of their public liability insurance in writing.

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Post by flyingfish Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:00 pm

What were your original appeal grounds? It's a bit odd that the Adjudicator's decision didn't mention your grounds.

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BoEVAT council pcn - Traffic Tribunal - Page 2 Empty These are the guidelines which the courts must follow!

Post by pitano1 Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:18 pm

janloot wrote:** UPDATE **

I have just received the letter below from the council. this is a reply to a letter I sent them stating once again I am not refusing to pay, I just require a proper vat invoice......

BoEVAT council pcn - Traffic Tribunal - Page 2 Reply_10

BoEVAT council pcn - Traffic Tribunal - Page 2 Reply_11


How can the council take action for the payment?
If a bailiff then they will need a court order......  if so, then the process will surely start again??

Any advice most welcome.

(Does anyone have the contact details of the Boevat guys?)   via pm if it helps

Wink
Bills of Exchange Act 1882 - Acceptance, Signature and Delivery

Read this excerptOpens in a new window from the Bills of Exchange Act 1882.
Obligation to provide a VAT invoice

Regulation 13_ VAT Regulations 1995.Opens in a new window
The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice
ps.
The above applies to any commercial business...including councils.Very Happy
ps.
you need to rebut the last letter...with a...NOTICE as per- DI

Also, any commercial court will be bound by the above.


So...assassins thoughts are spot on.
ps.
this all hinges on...whether you filled in there...FORM Evil or Very Mad
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Post by janloot Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:43 pm

flyingfish wrote:What were your original appeal grounds?  It's a bit odd that the Adjudicator's decision didn't mention your grounds.

I followed the BoEVAT system listed below, I dont recall ever asking for an appeal tho!:

Form TE9 Response (for Council issued tickets only)
TE9 example: Northampton Court Witness Statement

You need to complete the form adding a single tick against the entry:

I made representations about the penalty charge to the enforcing authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner, but did not receive a rejection notice.

Make sure that you fill in your details, and make sure that you have proof that you sent the BoEVAT Notices, and that they were received by the PCN bandits.

Only sign the Statement of Truth if you know this to be true, otherwise you will be open to charges of perjury.

Send with it copies of the BoEVAT Notices you sent to the PCN bandits, all the Notices and letters from the PCN bandits, along with your edited and signed copy of your TE9 Witness Statement.

In the event that the case is referred back to the Traffic Tribunal by the Council, we have formulated the following response, which should be sent to the Tribunal Adjudicator:

DOCX Format: Letter to the Tribunal AdjudicatorOpens in a new window

ODT Format: Letter to the Tribunal Adjudicaton

....................


Letter of complaint sent and also conditional acceptance statement included.
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Post by flyingfish Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:24 pm

janloot wrote:I followed the BoEVAT system listed below, I dont recall ever asking for an appeal tho!:
I guess they see these as raising points of law, rather than a dispute about the parking or its enforcement procedures.  I expect that's why they're advising that it needs to be raised in court.

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BoEVAT council pcn - Traffic Tribunal - Page 2 Empty Re: BoEVAT council pcn - Traffic Tribunal

Post by janloot Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:16 pm

**  UPDATE **

Good evening members


Today I received a reply regarding my complaint to the council:

BoEVAT council pcn - Traffic Tribunal - Page 2 Compla10

Note: it is not within your gift to simply reject a PCN !!

Note: to that end, legal instructions to the parking services dept are to proceed with the enforcement IN THE USUAL WAY !!

I will of coarse take the complaint to stage 2 but any inputbmost welcome.

ps: I did use the contact us link for the BoeVAT boys but have received no reply..
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Post by daveiron Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:06 pm

I've been looking around as I have heard it said that councils can only issue pcn's and
not fines. However research shows that is not the case.

One question you may wish to ask is . Who appoints the adjudicator ? The answer is he is
appointed by the council. How can he/she therefore be independant.

Not much help i'm afraid,maybe someone can provide more.

One other thing comes to mind, Ask for the definition of 'parking' and where they obtained
it. I have in the past spent hours looking for a legal definition ,and can only find it relates
to a banking practice.


Last edited by daveiron on Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:15 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : addition)
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Post by LionsShare Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:57 pm

'it is a fine levied against you for an alleged parking offense'

OK the word alleged, does that mean nothing is proven beyond reasonable doubt? still only alleged?, Are you being levied as I think only physical property can be levied against, because THEY only think there may be an offense comitted?

It may be worth asking them to prove an offense has actually been committed. They will state yes  -no doubt- then ask how they can actually prove it is an offence (parking wherever) - who says so?

You could go down the road of getting THEM to prove applicable obligation. Just a thought.


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Post by LionsShare Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:05 pm

When this all started for you were you offered a reduction if paid in ? days? If so then a PCN IMO is an invoice for which you have the right to reject or decline business, subject to BOE1882 (I have had lies told to me by util Co's stating I had sent prom notes to pay bills when in fact had NOT).

If they are raising points of law then certainly;

Bill of Rights Act 1688
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/WillandMarSess2/1/2/introduction

Grants of Forfeitures.
That all Grants and Promises of Fines and Forfeitures of particular persons before Conviction are illegall and void.
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Post by janloot Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:55 pm

Thanks for the replies Wink

I have just finished writing a letter stating I wish to take my complaint to stage 2.

I have included the info on Bill of Rights Act and stated I will take this further if need be to the local authority ombusman and my MP

Thanks again
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Post by janloot Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:37 pm

**  UPDATE  **

I have received a letter informing me of the stage 2 complaint result.

Not good news tho  Sad

BoEVAT council pcn - Traffic Tribunal - Page 2 2nd_ap11
BoEVAT council pcn - Traffic Tribunal - Page 2 2nd_ap10

I will of coarse take it to the next stage but I would be grateful for any help/advice moving forward.

I was hoping the BOEvat lads would have picked up this post but I have been unable to contact them.

Thanks again
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Post by waylander62 Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:56 pm

submit an FOI request in respect of the ' investigation' of the ICB and ask them to explain why an invoice cannot be raised and what satisfied them that there is no requirement to issue an invoice ?

i have no idea about this in general but the lengths they are going to to avoid raising a simple invoice speaks volumes. VAT avoidance ?

have you requested that they provide you with the relevant section of the traffic management act 2004 which they keep referring to ?

i dont see any explanation for any decision they have made other than, ' we cant' ' we wont' 'we dont have to'

ok explain why ?

just me thinking out loud

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Post by daveiron Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:27 pm

Notice of conditional acceptance.

I may accept your offer upon answers given to my satisfaction listed below

1. Is Scarborough Borough Council listed as a company at Companies House
with the registration no 3616034 and or 1595414 ?
2. Your correspondance perporting to be from an adjudicator called Jill Yates,
arrived on SBC headed paper and perported to be from SBC.
Please inform me if Jill Yates was appointed to that position by SBC .
Please also inform me if Jill Yates receives any remumeration from SBC.
3 If JillYates receives any remumeration from SBC please explain how Jill Yates
can by any definition be classed as independant.
4 Please supply a legal definition legal of 'parking' and where you obtained that definition
5 Your letter stated that payment shouls be made to Parking Services . The word
services implies you have provided a service.Therefore please explain why
you are refusing to to supply an invoice including VAT in accordance with the
Bills of Exchange Act 1882
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Post by janloot Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:31 pm

Nice one waylander & daveiron  -  just made my next letter to them much easier on my part  

cheers cheers cheers
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Post by janloot Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:24 pm

**UPDATE**

Good evening members

Well you couldnt make this stuff up!

I have sent the FOI request and shopuld be hearing something very shortly.

Today I received ANOTHER Form TE3 order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge (Parking) ... this will be the 4th!!

I will of course send the Form TE9 Witness statement and also a covering letter but does anyone have any aditional advice how to go forward?

Thanks

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Post by daveiron Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:55 pm

Refer them to your NoCA if you sent one,if not send it now.
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Post by janloot Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:18 pm

** UPDATE **


Firstly I received a letter from the tribunal on monday but it was exactly the same as all the previous tribunal decisions. Sent it back to the council!!

I also received yesterday my FOI request, please see below:



BoEVAT council pcn - Traffic Tribunal - Page 2 Foi_110
BoEVAT council pcn - Traffic Tribunal - Page 2 Foi_210

All comments and advice gratefully received
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Post by daveiron Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:00 pm

I have just spent the past few hours reading the entire traffic management act
nowhere in the entire act does it define parking.

You could write back to whoever responded to your foi (do not do it as a foi)
and put them under strict proof of claim ,to show where in the act 'parking' is
defined,and as they are making a claim they must give a legal definition of parking.
and where they obtained it.
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Post by hughythomas Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:41 am

Sorry to hijack this - I'm really not convinced by any of this tbh.

I've never paid any PCN and I'm the only man I know whos ever been paid by the council for them putting PCNS on my car. I worded this at the time as 'unnecessary administration in relation to the case' and subsequently received a cheque for £200.00.

You should check out Troy on youtube (if its not been censored that is!).

I'm paraphrasing here but he states that there are three (3) jurisdictions:

1. Criminal Complaint
2. Civil Claim
3. Commercial Charge

Each type has pre-requisites that must be in play in order to legitimize. As we are dealing here with a Penalty CHARGE Notice the clues in the title - its a commercial charge which means the rules of commerce apply.

Don't get me wrong here theres obviously loads of ways to go about this but I've never had to send more than 3 notices to get these guys off my back. Maybe I've just been incredibly lucky up until this point?

I've never used this VAT methodology and the obvious problem with this is you're firmly positioning yourself in the 'legal' framework. I would always challenge them to produce proof of claim that:

1. I was acting under a driver's license at the time of the alleged contravention
2. Evidence of a pre-existing account (this ties into point 1 really but its just so as to be very clear that I know about commercial charges)
3. Name of the man or woman who is claiming to have been injured or harmed as a direct result of my alleged actions. The party should also be able to demonstrate the nature of the injury (this is required for a criminal complaint).
4. There was valuable consideration for any services rendered by DIRTY SCALLYWAGS COUNCIL with a signed contract (the agreement of the parties) and full disclosure of T&Cs.

I use the usual style of Notice of Conditional Acceptance and then at the end on a separate sheet include my Terms and Conditions. When they send the usual garbage back you progress to Notice of Fault & Opportunity to Cure and then to Notice of Default.

I've posted a few times on this forum with my remedy but no one seems to have taken much interest. Shame, as I have a 100% success rate but like I say, still could be luck as I've only fought off about 20 of these in my life so far.

Just my two pennies worth and I bow to others superior knowledge on this and if boveat is getting the results then great carry on with that! Smile

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Post by daveiron Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:51 pm

Good post,
What are your thoughts regarding being in the system by using DVLA plates ?
I can see the merits of the route being used by the ULCT whereby you are
operating outside of their system.
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Post by LionsShare Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:09 pm

probable where we all need to be is out & away from this system of commerce, it seems to be to change this rule or that for ?? & chuck somat else in. Just as T.H.E.Y. are moving goal posts then we will fight back with a plethora of whatever in response.

Yes I have used boevat stuff & not heard a peep so I would say unless someone proves me wrong it does work & the more of whatever is brought to the table the better.

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Post by hughythomas Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:30 pm

LionsShare wrote:probable where we all need to be is out & away from this system of commerce, it seems to be to change this rule or that for ?? & chuck somat else in. Just as T.H.E.Y. are moving goal posts then we will fight back with a plethora of whatever in response.

Yes I have used boevat stuff & not heard a peep so I would say unless someone proves me wrong it does work & the more of whatever is brought to the table the better.

LS

Yup totally appreciate that - I think I could have worded my post a little better. Its not to disrespect the boveat methodology I guess I'm just coming at this all slightly differently.

I personally don't want to operate in 'legal' but always want to operate in 'lawful'.


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Post by hughythomas Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:32 pm

daveiron wrote:Good post,
What are your thoughts regarding being in the system by using DVLA plates ?
I can see the merits of the route being used by the ULCT whereby you are
operating outside of their system.

Well, i live with my folks and they do NOT share my sentiment regarding the commerce game (!).

So, I guess everyone's situation is different.

I did however receive an offer to pay some money, go on a speed course and receive points on a license for allegedly travelling quicker than the game would allow me to.

As you can imagine, none of the above happened and I politely requested some proof(s) of claim from poo-lice and never heard from them again.

That was two letters - this stuff is powerful if used properly it seems!

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Post by slacker777 Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:40 pm

Hi good folks, just throwing this in,

I won a bus lane PCN from wolverhampton council by requesting a full VAT invoice. They reset the clock on the "offence" and tried again, so i followed up with same request for FULL VAT invoice & "otherwise they are encouraging me to commit VAT fraud". 4 years ago not from since. BTW i got the idea from some posts on the original GOODF website. RIP

P.S. I just saw i QVC ad for snake oil and it was £18 a bot, someone's buying it, just as some people are still paying pcn's.

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Post by LionsShare Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:15 pm

here is the obligation to provide a properly VAT'd invoice:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1995/2518/regulation/13/made

this has already been shown above but this link may give better indication of that stated.
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