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Moon phases


Any Advice Please (Vanquis Lowell CCBC Claim Form Issued)

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Post by carlodavo Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:07 am

Hi all

I used to be a member of the old GOODF website and so I wondered if anybody here could give me some advice or help regarding submitting a defence to the court on a recent claim form I have received. The day of service was 12/1/22 and so my intention is to complete the AOS online later today to give me the extra 14 days.

I have not admitted to the debt (Approx £4K) or entered into any communication with either the OC, the assigned DCA or the solicitors acting on their behalf since before the original CC account defaulted back in July 2020. I'm aware I should have tackled this debt problem sooner before it got to the CCJ claim stage but this is where I am at unfortunately.

As well as wording my defence on the response form, I wanted to know if I’m also required to send out any document requests in the post to the claimant Lowell / Solicitors and also Vanquis themselves.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.


Last edited by carlodavo on Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:17 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : urgent advice needed)

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Post by flyingfish Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:22 pm

A few background questions. Has the claim been sold on, so that the debt purchaser is raising the claim, or are the solicitors acting for the original creditor? Do you have a particular defence in mind?  I don't think there is a universal defence that can always be used, it will depend on your circumstances and the details of this particular agreement.

It helps to look at their "Particulars of Claim" and consider how you would respond to each point raised. Bear in mind that a civil court will only rule on matters that have been disputed, the court won't normally go investigating or questioning matters on their own accord. So essentially anything in the particulars will be treated as fact unless you can show otherwise.

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Post by carlodavo Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:22 pm

Thank you for replying flyingfish.

The debt has been sold on, so yes the solicitors are acting for the debt purchaser who is the claimant.

Particulars of Claim:
" The claim is for the sum of £XXXX.XX due by the Defendant under an agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for a Vanquis account with an account reference of XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. The Defendant failed to maintain contractual payments required by the agreement and a Default Notice was served under s.87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 which has not been complied with. The debt was legally assigned to the claimant on **/**/**, notice of which has been given to the defendant. The claim includes statutory interest under S.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum from the date of assignment to the date of issue of these proceedings in the sum of £XXX.XX. The Claimant claims the sum of £XXXX.XX "

So they are correct in stating that I failed to maintain contractual payments and therefore the account defaulted but when I return the Acknowledgment of Service to them are they then obliged to send me specific documents to back up the details of their particulars of claim?

Also should I send a written request to them for the original CCA and also the other notices like legal assignment of the debt from the original creditor, etc? About 6 years ago I did submit a defence on a CCJ claim form (same claimant actually) but a different original creditor and I was able to do this at the time through advice given to me from the get out of debt forum. The claimant never responded in the set time frame and therefore it was stayed. I'm just a bit weary about copying and pasting the language and points raised in that defence into this one.

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Post by flyingfish Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:38 pm

OK so you should have received a default notice, without which there is no entitlement for them to raise proceedings.  And a notice of assignment, showing the purchaser's right.

If time allows you should make a CCA request for the agreement (CCA s78).  Be aware that there is case law determining that the obligation is to provide the information from the original agreement, not necessarily the actual signed agreement itself. Someone here referred to later precedents requiring the original signature to be produced, but I didn't see the actual case cited.

The thing about the CCA request is that if they don't comply within the set time then there's a statutory bar to their proceedings, until they do comply.

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Post by carlodavo Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:03 pm

I'm not aware of receiving the default notice back in July/August 2020, however it's likely that they did send me one because I did receive the "notice of assignment" showing the purchaser had bought the debt from the OC.

I haven't gone through this process for a number of years so forgive me for being a bit rusty but am I right in thinking that it's at too late at this stage to embark in the 3 letter process and also the NOCA? Do you think I should just send one letter requesting the CCA?

Obviously I need to still fill out the AOS tonight/ tomorrow otherwise judgement will be made against me anyway

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Post by chobbs Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:52 pm

Hello, I've been battling Lowell all year, they purchased utility debt and my account with these companies were closed

I ignored all letters and refused mediation at the Northampton County Court Business Centre.
I received a court date that they will have to pay for in a couple of months time.

Doing the 3 letter process now, two down one to go

Shall i still do the CCA request now? Are there any templates for this?

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Post by flyingfish Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:12 am

This would be better in a separate thread as your circumstances appear to be completely different.  A few questions ..
(1) What is the claim for exactly, you say "utilities" do you mean gas electricity etc?
(2) Was the value of the court claim more or less than £10K including everything they were trying to include?
(3) Did you acknowledge service within 14 days?
Then maybe a bit of explanation as to how things went from that point. Normally mediation would be offered after DQ, which in turn would be after you filed your defence.  But you say you didn't send a defence. So I'm not sure why they didn't go directly for a Judgement in Default.

Regarding the underlying matter if these are utility bills (see Q1) then these aren't covered by the Consumer Credit Act, so a CCA request won't help. Hopefully you've made appropriate checks on the "3 letters" to make sure they don't quote anything that's not applicable.

As you say that the alleged debt has been sold on to Lowell, the arguments regarding assignment remain valid. Lowell will have to evidence their right to the debt, as well as its value and even its very existence.

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Post by chobbs Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:07 pm

Thanks for your reply

1. Yes gas and electirc from 2017, 5 years ago
2. Roughtly £2500
3. Yes acknowledged service within 14 days, defended the claim, turned down mediation and escalated to small claims track hearing in local county court. I did not submit defence at this stage as i was on holiday.
I recevied their solicitors defence who are overdales based in the same offices.
4. in the letters i request the following documentation

- A copy of the relevant and lawful Terms and Conditions;
- A true and certified copy (NOT photocopy) of the Deed of Assignment (NOT Notice of Assignment);
- A true and certified copy (NOT photocopy) of the Original Credit Agreement;


In their whitness statement is says;
The original agreement is not exhibited becuase
a. the claimant does not have access to a copy as this was not retained by the assignor.
b. there is no legislation requiring the assignor to retain a copy of the original agreement

another point they say is;
The accounts were purchased in good faith, and as far as the claiment is aware, the debts are due and owing and the defendant is liable to pay the same.

Regards,

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Post by flyingfish Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:27 pm

chobbs wrote:3. Yes acknowledged service within 14 days, defended the claim, turned down mediation and escalated to small claims track hearing in local county court.
OK so far, what was the essence of your defence?
chobbs wrote:I did not submit defence at this stage as i was on holiday.
That's not clear, you say you had already made your defence.  What exactly was being asked for at this stage?
chobbs wrote:I recevied their solicitors defence who are overdales based in the same offices.
At a guess this would be their "reply to your defence"?
chobbs wrote:A true and certified copy (NOT photocopy) of the Original Credit Agreement
There's no credit agreement for either gas or electric supply. Was the original creditor a supplied that you chose for your gas and electric, or was this a deemed contract based solely on you using the supplies? I don't think you said how the alleged debt built up in the first place.

When is the hearing?

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Post by chobbs Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:48 pm

OK so far, what was the essence of your defence?

due to turning down meditation My defence said "i wish to defend within a court of justice where the claimant will need to provide proof of claim. namely the deed of assignment and the original credit agreement"

I did not submit defence at this stage as i was on holiday.

Sorry i meant witness statement

I received their solicitors defence who are Overdales based in the same offices.

Sorry not defence, it's a witness statement.

There's no credit agreement for either gas or electric supply. Was the original creditor a supplied that you chose for your gas and electric, or was this a deemed contract based solely on you using the supplies? I don't think you said how the alleged debt built up in the first place.

First one was deemed and the second one chosen i believe. Lowell purchased the debt from two companies.
No payment was made to the first company but payments were made to the second

Hearing is late November

I can send you the correspondence, maybe easier?

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Post by flyingfish Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:07 am

To be honest you do not appear to have a particularly strong case, unless there is something you've not mentioned which means you had an arguable reason for not having paid these suppliers originally. Of course there's a chance the claimant may screw up their case.

Can I ask, have you been following advice from social media groups?

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Post by chobbs Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:00 am

Lowell purchased the debt so therefore the debt was extinguished.
If you and i had an agreement that i owed you money but i sold the debt to someone else, would you pay?

Also Bills of Exchange Act 1882, 23 Signature essential to liability.
No person is liable as drawer, indorser, or acceptor of a bill who has not signed it as such: Provided that
(1)Where a person signs a bill in a trade or assumed name, he is liable thereon as if he had signed it in his own name:
(2)The signature of the name of a firm is equivalent to the signature by the person so signing of the names of all persons liable as partners in that firm.



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Post by flyingfish Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:12 pm

chobbs wrote:If you and i had an agreement that i owed you money but i sold the debt to someone else, would you pay?
In pretty much all cases a debt can be assigned, however this is part of the case that Lowell will have to make, showing their entitlement.
chobbs wrote:Also Bills of Exchange Act 1882, 23 Signature essential to liability.
I think you will struggle here. There is no Bill of Exchange involved here, making the act irrelevant.
I really wish you the best of luck, but I would be happier if there were some arguable defences that you could use.

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Post by chobbs Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:48 pm

Thanks for your reply, what do you think of this act?

Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999, Section 1 sub sections 1-2
States that the third party must have been expressly identified by name in the original contract for them to have a claim.

Regards

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Post by flyingfish Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:02 pm

Assignment most commonly relies on the Law of Property Act s136.  However I wouldn't discount there being some specific provision in among the gas and electricity supply legislation.  Did you receive a Notice of Assignment, and did it state the legal basis claimed?

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Post by chobbs Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:33 pm

I dont believe so, I requested a true and certified copy (NOT photocopy) of the Deed of Assignment (NOT Notice of Assignment).

their Solicitor’s response was

There is no legal requirement for assignment of debt to be in the form of a deed.

In most cases this done by simple contract (a debt sale agreement). Our client is under no obligation to disclose the Debt Sale Agreement to you. This is a private contract between our client and the original creditor, the terms of which are commercially sensitive and confidential

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Post by flyingfish Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:41 pm

That's true, although assignment often is (or was) by deed that's not legal requirement. You should have received a notice though, and it may help you if you did not.

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Post by chobbs Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:50 pm

Another letter says "Reconstituted Notice of Assignments were sent to you at your home address"

I do save all paper work but i cannot find these Reconstituted Notice of Assignments

I assume the 'Notice of Assignment' comes from the Claimant 'Lowell'?

Also i have not been presented with a bill to pay, shouldn't they need to produce a paper bill?

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Post by flyingfish Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:16 pm

chobbs wrote:Also i have not been presented with a bill to pay, shouldn't they need to produce a paper bill?
There may be more mileage in this line of attack. Debt purchasers often just get names, addresses and balances with no breakdown or justification for the sum said to be owing. Have you asked for this, if not then you should do so asking for evidence of the sum claimed by way of start and finish meter readings, dates, unit prices and standing charges. You may need to word this carefully if you're also denying that the debt even exists, to make sure that questioning the sum claimed doesn't appear to admit that "something" may be owing.

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