smart/scam you for parking fine

by toolapcblack Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:18 pm

Hi all does the 14day period mentioned below include weekends? Or is it just working days

Protections of freedom act 2012
"The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended"
Protections of Freedom Act

In a 2 hour free car park these parasites claim i entered at 10:22:11 and left at 13:22:12!!!! that would take some doing within 1sec of entering.

My car but was not driving pictures of her-in-doors driving in and me walking back to the car ....no way we parked there for 3 hours

by waylander62 Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:43 pm

tell them so, tell them your wife entered at 10:22 and left well within the 2 hour parking time limit and that you yourself drove into the car park later ( not knowing your wife had already been there ) and left well within the 2 hour period allowed for free parking

evidence backs this up therefore they have failed to evidence your wife leaving the car park after a 3 hour stay tell them to check their own footage as there is a known percentage that not all exit and entries appear on their system.
i successfully defended one of these for my son.

also request full details of the owner of the land should you need to make a direct appeal to them ( they dont like this )

by flyingfish Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:35 pm

toolapcblack wrote:Hi all does the 14day period mentioned below include weekends? Or is it just working days

Protections of freedom act 2012
"The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended"
Protections of Freedom Act

It's 14 days, not 14 working days. Hopefully you're aware not to indicate who was driving at the time, but (in my opinion) no reason not to tell them that it wasn't you. Check in POFA Schedule 4, there are a few more hoops for them to jump through before they have a case against the Keeper as opposed to Driver.

As Waylander says, this "double dipping" where they merge two short visits and claim it as one long one, is well known. Any reputable industry would have put some sort of sanity checking in place years ago.

Was a notice put on the car at the time "Notice to Driver"?

by toolapcblack Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:44 pm

No notice put on the car at the time. I am the keeper but was not driving at the time
so had the attached through the post Monday about my appeal it took 2weeks to hit my doorstep!

smart/scam you for parking fine Imag0018

smart/scam you for parking fine Imag0020

by flyingfish Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:03 pm

So you have nothing to lose by an appeal to POPLA. However stick to the mainstream arguments, which in this case is that you were not actually parked for that time. See what sort of evidence, even informal evidence, that your car was elsewhere between those start and finish times, to support your case that this was double dipping. POPLA know perfectly well that this happens. Do the photos show a different person driving in and driving out? That does not necessarily prove it was two visits, but it supports your account.

The thing that bugs me about these double dipping case is that it is so unlikely that they missed both your car leaving for the first time, and it returning for the second time. So they probably actually have three picture -first arrival, second arrival and second departure. Looking at those three would make it all perfectly clear. However getting them to disclose that middle one may be a different matter. You could try a SAR asking for any photos showing your registration number.

by toolapcblack Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:57 am

rather than POPLA can i use the Protections of freedom act 2012(see below). as their notice was late getting to me?
"The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended"

Also i am the keeper and was not the driver at the time, do i have to disclose the drivers name?
What could happen if i just do nothing? I do not live at the address vehicle is registered at.
Thanks J

by waylander62 Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:52 pm

it looks like you have already appealed and they have rejected your appeal ? is this right ?

you dont mention your grounds that you used for your appeal ? that would help. a lot in fact.

why not use POPLA AND also use the act that you quote in your appeal to POPLA

their evidence they provide ? photo of your car entering can you see the driver and clearly see that it was NOT you ?

their evidence of the car leaving ? again can you see the driver and is it clearly a different person ?

their case will be built on entry and exit of the car park and the times involved.

if you do nothing they will likely add to the fee, then get a DCA to chase you who will add more then take it to court and add court fees and also costs

really need more information

i am dealing with a notice now, issued by heathrow airports agent, who got a DCA involved.

original charge £40 then went up to £80 then got a letter from their DCA who wanted £150. Sent a very strong reply to DCA on 21st september heard absolutely NOTHING since then. Have just sent a letter to the principal ( heathrow airport ) lets see what happens next.

by flyingfish Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:53 pm

Yes you can argue non-compliance with POFA Schedule 4, which if proven would mean they can't pursue the keeper. You have quote the correct time limit as specified in 9 (4) and (5). Whether or not their timing complies with BPA's code of practice is neither here nor there.

You do not have to name the driver, just state that you were not the driver. In fact I think you say that their photos confirm this.

Regarding POPLA that's your only avenue at the moment if you want to actively challenge it. Use every argument that you can, including non-compliance with POFA.

If you don't appeal to POPLA then the ball's back with them to raise court proceedings if they want to take it further.

If you lose at POPLA you can still defend in court.

by toolapcblack Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:37 pm

Many Thanks.
So i just tried the POPLA route and it bombed me out as i was not the driver of the vehicle..to quote it said We’re really sorry
POPLA cannot accept an appeal unless you were the driver who received the Parking Charge Notice or you are appealing on behalf of the driver who received the Parking Charge Notice. As such, I am afraid we cannot help you based on your answers.

just appealed again on the smart site showing their letter dated the 8th which is 14days after contravention
You did not obey the Protections of Freedom Act 2012 in your most recent letter you admit gaining my details on 4/11/2022 but failed to generate the notice until the 8th??? which is the 14th day after the contravention (26/10/2022). I needed to be in receipt of the notice by the 9th at the latest, the notice was received by me 2 days after this!!! Check your letter as it was clearly dated the 8th of November, you should of posted it to arrive no latter than the 9th. Postal law confirms it is assumed letters are received after 2 days of posting so the earliest date for receiving would be the 10th(although i did not receive it until the 11th)
I was not the driver at the time of the alleged offence

by flyingfish Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:13 pm

That is odd I must admit. Their letter talks about posting notices to the keeper, but when they mention POPLA they refer to the driver instead.

However I must admit I didn't pick up that you're in Northern Ireland. Let me do a few checks, may POFA and keeper liability doesn't apply there.

by flyingfish Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:25 pm

Right as far as I can see there is no keeper liability in Northern Ireland. Only the driver can be held liable. So since you weren't driving you can tell them to take a hike.

POFA applies only in England and Wales, and I've not found anything to indicate that any other legislation gives the same effect in NI. Just a slight caution because something was proposed for Scotland.

by toolapcblack Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:25 pm

Many Thanks, Car is registered in Wales but contravention occurred during a visit to NI where i wasn't driving (pics clearly show this), so am i clear to tell them to run and jump?

by flyingfish Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:03 pm

That's correct. Because the alleged "contravention" took place in NI, they have no claim against the keeper, even if you don't live in NI.

by toolapcblack Mon Dec 12, 2022 4:23 pm

many thanks for your help flyingfish, is there any acts, statutes or official docs i can refer them to?

by flyingfish Mon Dec 12, 2022 5:20 pm

It's a bit more of a negative, the absence of any legislation. In that absence Common Law applies, a person is responsible for their own actions and not those of others. Hence their claim must be against the driver.

So maybe what you could do is tell them you weren't the driver. State also that you are aware the Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 does not apply in Northern Ireland and therefore they can have no possible claim against anyone but the driver.

Where is the case at the moment, back with them to decide whether to take further action? If so then alternatively you could ignore anything except a Letter before Action.

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