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Enforcement services

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Enforcement services

Post by meeko on Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:39 am

Does any one know what an Civil Enforcement Service is? in regards to an agent being appointed to collect monies or goods concerning a council tax debt?

The debt actually is incorrect and evidence has been supplied to the council. This is regarding a 13 year old supposed debt owed on a property which they had actually vacated but its taken some time to gather some evidence. The original landlord never notified the council that it was unoccupied (hes not around anymore btw) But the council obviously now have gone to these enforcement people.

With NO Evidence that the property was occupied.

Had a enforcement officer banging on the door at 6:50 am and left an Enforcement Notice aand an extra £230 charge, they even wrote down our Car registration numbers on the letter.

I was thinking first of sending a Removal of Access to them with a letter explaining that this matter is still being dealt with by the council, before sending anything else.

thoughts please?

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Re: Enforcement services

Post by Tiggy on Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:29 pm

When did they get the Liability Order ?

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Re: Enforcement services

Post by meeko on Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:39 pm

To day Tiggy - this morning

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Re: Enforcement services

Post by Tiggy on Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:52 am

@meeko wrote:To day Tiggy - this morning

How could they have obtained the liability order 'this morning', that doesn't make sense.

The question I was asking was when did they go to Court to obtain the original liability order??

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Re: Enforcement services

Post by meeko on Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:38 pm

oh sorry my bad, Im thinking you mean that when did the council get the liability order from the court?

If so I have no idea. heres the history...

I was contacted out of the blue around six weeks ago by my local council notifying me that I owe £750 for unpaid Council Tax on a property I rented 13 years ago.

I explained to the council that I need some time to look into this as 13 years is a pretty long time ago. They continued to send letters but I have not seen anything regarding a court order to date. However I did see a letter saying they were passing it to a debt collector/collection agency.

I phoned the agency but could never get a person on the line so I left messages stating that I am still in dispute with the Council and tough nothing more of it.

I then wrote to the council last week showing my rent book receipts from 13 years ago which I found, and that clearly show I had vacated the premises. I also showed where I paid my final bill to the council for my council tax settlement after I had left.

They can provide no evidence at all that I was living at that address, its just guesswork. At one point they said "you probably left before your contract run out with the landlord so are still liable" which is laughable, I asked them on the phone for the evidence and they just change the subject.

The council are unable to contact the landlord but have somehow traced me, I'm a regular tax payer always have been by the way.

Two days after writing to the council at 6am in the morning my Mrs was awaked to a loud banging on the door, you know the kind that rattles the whole frame as if a swat team are about to come through the door. I was sound asleep btw. They obviously left and when i opened the front door there was a letter left with big bold writing "ENFORCEMENT NOTICE"

Tribunals, courts, and enforcements act 2007 - schedule 12 taking control of goods.



blah blah blah


Now I guess its quite possible I havent seen the court order Im very busy and travel alot etc and dont always get to see everything. Or it never was delivered, I just dont know.

I would say that I wasn't fast in acting though so that could be my bad but I really didn't take this is as so serious because they had no evidence from something that is 13 years old.

The company is an Enforcement Company.

Perhaps the council didn't get the info over to them in time? seems logical but Id really like to not have to confront one of these guys on my doorstep.

Do I engage with these people or speak to the council again? shall I send the enforcement company a Removal of Implied right of Access?

All this over something that happened 13 years ago for outstanding Council tax of about 6 months. The old landlord most likely never told them I had gone. And I went to live with friends anyway so didnt start paying Tax again till a few years later.

Funny when I spoke on the phone to the council I said "why dont you look up the landlord" they said we wouldn't be able to do that search" to which I replied "But you did it for me" lol no answer and they changed the subject again.

appreciate any advise.....N


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Re: Enforcement services

Post by Tiggy on Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:07 pm

Ok, you need to ask them when they obtained the Liability Order against you, they only have 6 years to have obtained one otherwise the debt under the Council Tax Regulations is unenforceable against you.

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Re: Enforcement services

Post by meeko on Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:14 pm

so the debt is statute barred? I think thats the term?

Is it 6 years from when the debt is alleged? I dont really understand this ruling sorry its pretty new for me Sad

Should I engage in any way with the Enforcement Agency?

Cheers. N

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Re: Enforcement services

Post by Tiggy on Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:59 pm

Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement) Regulations 1992

Section 34.3) Section 127(1) of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980(1) does not apply to such an application; but no application may be instituted in respect of a sum after the period of six years beginning with the day on which it became due under Part V.

So if they haven't got a Liability Order they can't now get one BUT I suspect they already got one years ago (which is what they're now chasing), possibly when you moved out, so I would suggest you submit a Statutory Declaration and request a hearing to determine actually liability for the Council Tax payment.

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Re: Enforcement services

Post by meeko on Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:29 pm

ok i see,

so if they went to court back then it would still be enforceable now and of course I moved away and never had any more dealings with them or the landlord so none the wiser.

I'd rather not spend my time with them tbh, Ive supplied them with receipts and a final account note from the landlord at the time I left. This was sent over last week so im hoping they will consider this enough.

I dont see how I can be made to pay a debt when there is no evidence I was living in the property. And it looks like from their records they sent me that I paid them a final amount approx two months after I moved out. Which was around £200.

Do I correspond at all with the Debt Enforcement Agency?

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Re: Enforcement services

Post by Tiggy on Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:26 am

@meeko wrote:ok i see,

so if they went to court back then it would still be enforceable now and of course I moved away and never had any more dealings with them or the landlord so none the wiser.

I'd rather not spend my time with them tbh, Ive supplied them with receipts and a final account note from the landlord at the time I left. This was sent over last week so im hoping they will consider this enough.

I dont see how I can be made to pay a debt when there is no evidence I was living in the property. And it looks like from their records they sent me that I paid them a final amount approx two months after I moved out. Which was around £200.

Do I correspond at all with the Debt Enforcement Agency?
It's entirely up to you, they may withdraw the enforcement on the evidence you've sent or they may decide to continue to pursue you as it's quite possibly they have an order of court.

Be aware though, you only have 21 days to submit a Statutory Declaration once you've found out about the Court Order.  

Also, if they decide to continue to chase and perceive you as 'not willing to pay' they could turn to committal proceedings instead and by then you're out of time to do an SD.

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Re: Enforcement services

Post by meeko on Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:57 am

ok so I guess I need to speak to the local council and find when this court order was then apply for a SD.

My biggest concern however Tiggy is the enforcement officers attending my home to remove goods under the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013.

The first I knew of this was when they turned up the other day I never had any other contact. Im really concerned about what to do with these people and wether or not I have rights like so many say about them having no powers etc unless I give it to them.

Please whats the best way to engage with them??????

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Re: Enforcement services

Post by Kestrel on Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:57 pm

I'm sure i know how you'd like to 'engage' with these vermin & in time people will indeed resort to that, however in the meantime lets have a few facts.

It is an alleged civil debt & if you say it's come from a magistrates court some info:
Magistrates’ court bailiffs
Magistrates’ court bailiffs work for the magistrates’ court and they are responsible to the clerk of the magistrates' court. They are used to deal with:
money owed because of a criminal case, including fines
money owed in certain non-criminal cases, for example, road traffic penalties.
However most magistrates’ courts now use private bailiffs to collect these debts.

Bailiffs cannot force their way in to a property
It is unlawful to use assault or battery and see cla1977 s.6(2)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/45/section/6

Attending - Without a Levy on Goods
Forced Entry
A bailiff in execution of a warrant or a writ CANNOT make forcible entry to a dwellinghouse unless and until he has completed seizure of the goods in consequence of the first entry, Halsbury's Laws of England loose leaf edition vol.1 paragraph 9.128 and originally from Semayne v Gresham [1604] Yelverton 29 or Seyman v Gresham [1604] Croke, Elizabeth 809 or P.18 Ed.IV fo.4 pl.19
If a bailiff breaks into your property without a valid levy the bailiff has a civil and criminal liability Khazanchi & Anor v Faircharm Investments Ltd & Ors, Court of Appeal
Bailiffs cannot break open a door but can open one if it is unlocked, Budd v Pyle [1846] 10 JP 203
A debtor can lawfully resist a bailiff without a levy from entering the home if entry is being made against his will, Vaughan v McKenzie [1969] 1 QB 557
Otherwise a door left open is an implied license for a bailiff to enter, Faulkner v Willetts [1982] Crim LR 453 likewise a person standing back to allow the bailiff to walk through but the bailiff must not abuse this license by entering by improper means or by unusual routes, Ancaster v Milling [1823] 2 D&R 714 or Rogers v Spence [1846] M&W 571
Bailiffs can force entry to premises that are not a dwelling house nor connected to one. Only a debtor's home is protected by law, Hodder v Williams [1895] 2 QB 663
Bailiffs cannot force their way into a private dwelling but can in the case of a commercial or business premises, Grove v Eastern Gas [1952] 1 KB 77
Contrast: A bailiff breaking down a door of a commercial warehouse is unlawful - Bowen LJ and the bailiff's appeal was dismissed. American Concentrated Must Co v Hendry [1893] 68 LT 742.
Provided a bailiff enters a property peacefully and without breaking in, he can break open inner doors inside the property, Lee v Gansel [1774] 1 Cowp 1
A bailiff entering through an unlocked door can break the lock if the door is subsequently locked while still inside, Pugh v Griffith [1838] 7 A&E 827
A debtor can remove right of implied access by displaying a notice at the entrance. This was endorsed by Lord Justice Donaldson in the case of Lambert v Roberts [1981] 72 Cr App R 223 - and placing such a notice is akin to a closed door but it also prevents a bailiff entering the garden or driveway, Knox v Anderton [1983] Crim LR 115 or R. v Leroy Roberts [2003] EWCA Crim 2753
Debtors can also remove implied right of access to property by telling him to leave: Davis v Lisle [1936] 2 KB 434 similarly, McArdle v Wallace [1964] 108 Sol Jo 483
A bailiff must leave the premises when told to do so, Robson & Another v Hallett [1967] 2 QB 939
A person having been told to leave is now under a duty to withdraw from the property with all due reasonable speed and failure to do so he is not thereafter acting in the execution of his duty and becomes a trespasser with any subsequent levy made being invalid and attracts a liability under a claim for damages, Morris v Beardmore [1980] 71 Cr App 256.
If the bailiff has already started to make a levy, he can no longer be made to leave and he cannot be assaulted, Southam v Smout [1964] 1 QB 308.
Bailiffs cannot force their way into a private dwelling, Grove v Eastern Gas [1952] 1 KB 77
Ringing a doorbell is not causing a disturbance, Grant v Moser [1843] 5 M&G 123 or R. v Bright 4 C&P 387 nor is refusing to leave a property causes a disturbance, Green v Bartram [1830] 4 C&P 308 or Jordan v Gibbon [1863] 8 LT 391
Permission for a bailiff to enter may be refused provided the words used are not capable of being mistaken for swear words, Bailey v Wilson [1968] Crim LR 618 or Snook v Mannion [1982] Crim LR 601 or R (Roalfe) v Woking Magistrate's Court [2005] EWHC 2922 (Admin).
If the entry is peaceful but without permission then a request to leave should always be made first. Tullay v Reed [1823] 1 C&P 6 or an employee or other person can also request the bailiff to leave, Hall v Davis [1825] 2 C&P 33
Excessive force must be avoided, Gregory v Hall [1799] 8 TR 299 or Oakes v Wood [1837] 2 M&W 791
A debtor can use an equal amount of force to resist a bailiff from gaining entry, Weaver v Bush [1795] 8TR, Simpson v Morris [1813] 4 Taunt 821, Polkinhorne v Wright [1845] 8QB 197. Another occupier of the premises or an employee may also take these steps: Hall v Davis [1825] 2 C&P 33.
Also wrongful would be an attempt at forcible entry despite resistance, Ingle v Bell [1836] 1 M&W 516
Bailiffs cannot apply force to a door to gain entry, and if he does so he is not in the execution of his duty, Broughton v Wilkerson [1880] 44 JP 781, likewise placing an arm inside the door, Rossiter v Conway [1893] 53 JP 350
If a bailiff enters a property and makes a noise and disturbs the peace it is lawful for the occupier to eject him and if he refuses to leave the police may be called, Green v Bartram [1830] 4C&P 308 or Shaw v Chairtirie [1850] 3 C&K 21
A bailiff may not encourage a third party to allow the bailiff access to a property (i.e. Workmen inside a house), access by this means renders the entry unlawful, Nash v Lucas [1867] 2 QB 590
The debtor's home and all buildings within the boundary of the premises are protected against forced entry, Munroe & Munroe v Woodspring District Council [1979] Weston-Super-Mare County Court, (unreported)
"A fence intended to keep people out by interposing a serious obstacle into their getting in and, that being so, the entry was illegal", Judge Byles in Scott v Buckley [1867] 16 LT 573 The Times June 12, 11a
A fence that is on a boundary is a barrier, Stokes v British Mutual Banking Co Ltd [1886] The Times July 18, 6c
Contrast: A bailiff may climb over a wall or a fence or walk across a garden or yard provided that no damage occurs, Long v Clarke & another [1894] 1 QB 119
It is not contempt to assault a bailiff trying to climb over a locked gate after being refused entry, Lewis v Owen [1893] The Times November 6 p.36b (QBD)

If a bailiff enters by force he is there unlawfully and you can treat him as a trespasser. Curlewis v Laurie [1848] or Vaughan v McKenzie [1969] 1 QB 557
A debtor can lawfully use reasonable force in removing a bailiff without a levy that has refused to leave, the bailiff resisting is the person guilty of a breach of the peace, Green v Bartram [1830] 4 C&P 308 and if police are present, the bailiff is the person that police should arrest, Foulkes v Chief Constable of Merseyside Police [1998] 3 All ER 705
A debtor cannot be sued if a person enters a property uninvited and injures himself because he had no legal right to enter, Great Central Railway Co v Bates [1921] 3 KB 578
If a bailiff jams his boot into a debtor's door to stop him closing, any levy that is subsequently made is not valid: Rai & Rai v Birmingham City Council [1993] or Vaughan v McKenzie [1969] 1 QB 557 or Broughton v Wilkerson [1880] 44 JP 781, likewise an arm, Rossiter v Conway [1893] 53 JP 350
If a bailiff refuses to leave the property after being requested to do so or starts trying to force entry then he is causing a disturbance, Howell v Jackson [1834] 6 C&P 723 - but it is unreasonable for a police officer to arrest the bailiff unless he makes a threat, Bibby v Constable of Essex [2000] Court of Appeal April 2000.
Vaughan v McKenzie [1969] 1 QB 557 if the debtor strikes the bailiff over the head with a full milk bottle after making a forced entry, the debtor is not guilty of assault because the bailiff was there illegally, likewise R. v Tucker at Hove Trial Centre Crown Court, December 2012 if the debtor gives the bailiff a good slap.
If a person strikes a trespasser who has refused to leave is not guilty of an offence: Davis v Lisle [1936] 2 KB 434
License to enter must be refused BEFORE the process of levy starts, Kay v Hibbert [1977] Crim LR 226 or Matthews v Dwan [1949] NZLR 1037
A bailiff rendered a trespasser is liable for penalties in tort and the entry may be in breach of Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights if entry is not made in accordance with the law, Jokinen & Jokinen v Finland [2009] 37233/07
---------

http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=139&t=45956
POSSIBLY THE BEST BAILIFF INFO EVER though we know a lot of
A debtor can remove right of implied access by displaying a notice at the entrance. This was endorsed by Lord Justice Donaldson in the case of Lambert v Roberts [1981] 72 Cr App R 223 - and placing such a notice is akin to a closed door but it also prevents a bailiff entering the garden or driveway, Knox v Anderton [1983] Crim LR 115 or R. v Leroy Roberts [2003] EWCA Crim 2753

Debtors can also remove implied right of access to property by telling him to leave: Davis v Lisle [1936] 2 KB 434 similarly, McArdle v Wallace [1964] 108 Sol Jo 483

A person having been told to leave is now under a duty to withdraw from the property with all due reasonable speed and failure to do so he is not thereafter acting in the execution of his duty and becomes a trespasser with any subsequent levy made being invalid and attracts a liability under a claim for damages, Morris v Beardmore [1980] 71 Cr App 256.

Bailiffs cannot force their way into a private dwelling, Grove v Eastern Gas [1952] 1 KB 77

Otherwise a door left open is an implied license for a bailiff to enter, Faulkner v Willetts [1982] Crim LR 453 likewise a person standing back to allow the bailiff to walk through but the bailiff must not abuse this license by entering by improper means or by unusual routes, Ancaster v Milling [1823] 2 D&R 714 or Rogers v Spence [1846] M&W 571

Ringing a doorbell is not causing a disturbance, Grant v Moser [1843] 5 M&G 123 or R. v Bright 4 C&P 387 nor is refusing to leave a property causes a disturbance, Green v Bartram [1830] 4 C&P 308 or Jordan v Gibbon [1863] 8 LT 391

Permission for a bailiff to enter may be refused provided the words used are not capable of being mistaken for swear words, Bailey v Wilson [1968] Crim LR 618.

If the entry is peaceful but without permission then a request to leave should always be made first. Tullay v Reed [1823] 1 C&P 6 or an employee or other person can also request the bailiff to leave, Hall v Davis [1825] 2 C&P 33



Excessive force must be avoided, Gregory v Hall [1799] 8 TR 299 or Oakes v Wood [1837] 2 M&W 791

A debtor can use an equal amount of force to resist a bailiff from gaining entry, Weaver v Bush [1795] 8TR, Simpson v Morris [1813] 4 Taunt 821, Polkinhorne v Wright [1845] 8QB 197. Another occupier of the premises or an employee may also take these steps: Hall v Davis [1825] 2 C&P 33.

Also wrongful would be an attempt at forcible entry despite resistance, Ingle v Bell [1836] 1 M&W 516

Bailiffs cannot apply force to a door to gain entry, and if he does so he is not in the execution of his duty, Broughton v Wilkerson [1880] 44 JP 781

A Bailiff may not encourage a third party to allow the bailiff access to a property (ie workmen inside a house), access by this means renders the entry unlawful, Nash v Lucas [1867] 2 QB 590

The debtor's home and all buildings within the boundary of the premises are protected against forced entry, Munroe & Munroe v Woodspring District Council [1979] Weston-Super-Mare County Court

Contrast: A bailiff may climb over a wall or a fence or walk across a garden or yard provided that no damage occurs, Long v Clarke & another [1894] 1 QB 119

It is not contempt to assault a bailiff trying to climb over a locked gate after being refused entry, Lewis v Owen [1893] The Times November 6 p.36b (QBD)

If a bailiff enters by force he is there unlawfully and you can treat him as a trespasser. Curlewis v Laurie [1848] or Vaughan v McKenzie [1969] 1 QB 557

A debtor cannot be sued if a person enters a property uninvited and injures himself because he had no legal right to enter, Great Central Railway Co v Bates [1921] 3 KB 578

If a bailiff jams his boot into a debtors door to stop him closing, any levy that is subsequently made is not valid: Rai & Rai v Birmingham City Council [1993] or Vaughan v McKenzie [1969] 1 QB 557 or Broughton v Wilkerson [1880] 44 JP 781

If a bailiff refuses to leave the property after being requested to do so or starts trying to force entry then he is causing a disturbance, Howell v Jackson [1834] 6 C&P 723 - but it is unreasonable for a police officer to arrest the bailiff unless he makes a threat, Bibby v Constable of Essex [2000] Court of Appeal April 2000.

Vaughan v McKenzie [1969] 1 QB 557 if the debtor strikes the bailiff over the head with a full milk bottle after making a forced entry, the debtor is not guilty of assault because the bailiff was there illegally, likewise R. v Tucker at Hove Trial Centre Crown Court, December 2012 if the debtor gives the bailiff a good slap.

If a person strikes a trespasser who has refused to leave is not guilty of an offence: Davis v Lisle [1936] 2 KB 434

License to enter must be refused BEFORE the process of levy starts, Kay v Hibbert [1977] Crim LR 226 or Matthews v Dwan [1949] NZLR 1037

A bailiff rendered a trespasser is liable for penalties in tort and the entry may be in breach of Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights if entry is not made in accordance with the law, Jokinen v Finland [2009] 37233/07

Bailiff Fees Scam Finally revealed:
http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=61904
The reason you never, ever ever get shown a copy of the court issued warrant is not, as the bailiff says, that he does not have to show you it – in fact he does have to show you it.

Bailiff powers when they visit your home
https://www.gov.uk/your-rights-bailiffs

Direct Government Link to ‘Certified Bailiffs’:
http://certificatedbailiffs.justice.gov.uk/CertificatedBailiffs/

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Re: Enforcement services

Post by meeko on Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:03 pm

Nice one kestral thank you.....Now I just need a milk bottle and all is good in the world Smile


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Re: Enforcement services

Post by Kestrel on Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:08 pm

@meeko wrote:Nice one kestral thank you.....Now I just need a milk bottle and all is good in the world Smile


Milk bottle lol.

There may be some duplicates in the case law above, just put up what i knew i had at hand but is is worth looking into these & indeed printing them off to show these useful idiots & if the other useful idiots turn up in the guise of 'preventing a breach of the peace' then show these to them too.

It's an ongoing war been waged against us & we have to fight back & hopefully along the way get some of these useful idiots to change side.

Good luck!

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Re: Enforcement services

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