Water co

Hi all, could do with some guidance from the more experienced on here, will keep a short as poss.

So got summery judgement against me last Fri in favour of water co, have not heard a thing since, from water co or court, is this normal? How do i know what to pay and when?

Hearing was supposed to be at 10.00 am by one judge, did not get call until around 12.20pm by a different judge, i had put all paperwork away by then and got on with my day as I thought they had chickened out after affidavits sent.

Did send numerous affidavits & correspondence to the court manager via signed for and not one reply was received back. One of which was a dsar.
I managed to get through on the phone to the court after an hour of being on hold and asked to be put through to the court manager, the reply was ‘they only accept calls for complaints and then only if done in writing first’!

When asked after judgement was made if i had anything to add i quoted Hailsbury’s law, the judge left the conference call without a word.
The judge said at the beginning that we cant record the case and that the case was recorded and a transcript was also taken, do i have to ask for this?

Is there anywhere i can complain to about the case? I feel the judge had already made his mind up because he couldn’t of had long to read all the stuff and defence sent

Be lucky all

Sharpysparky

Is there any

Hi, surprised nobody else has chipped in. You should receive the court order by post, headed something like "General Form of Order" or similar. That order will give the sum due, and it would be payable to the claimant. This is all assuming you are going to pay it, but I am aware that there are some on here who prefer to live in a state of armed siege, fending off bailiffs all the time.  It's entirely your choice, however if you do decide to pay then do so within 28 days of the judgement, so that you can apply to have the CCJ removed from your records.

This is also entirely your decision, but it would helpful to others if you were to give some more detail about the defences that you made.  This may help someone else obtain a better outcome.  We need to know what works, but also what doesn't work.

Hi flyingfish, and thank you, i have had nothing through the post, i was sure that some kind of ‘instructions’ would have come through, how would I know otherwise?, i get judgement was made but there must be ‘terms and conditions’, i am for the moment thinking of paying and just start the process again? All my correspondence including affidavits where sent to the court manager and all signed for ( not the court manager but none the less they were received at the court building) i managed to get through to the receptionist and she advised that i send them in via email and mark it urgent as it was only two days away, when the judge (who wasnt the judge named on the original paperwork) and it was 2 hours and 20 mins after the time stated, went through the paperwork sent in he mentioned the said paper work but it was not signed (this is because it was a copy of the documents sent) schoolboy error on my part i guess but it just proves that my original signed for paper work was not included in the file?

Be lucky
SS

My defence was the bills of exchange and I quoted the water co’s article of association/ memorandum that states ‘ to draw, make, accept, endorsed. Discount, negotiate, execute or issue cheques, bills of exchange, promissory notes, bills of laden, warrants, debentures, and other negotiable or transferable instruments. Listed with companies house. When i quoted this to the judge he just dismissed it saying this is not a bill of exchange,
After judgement i was asked if there was anything i wanted to add i quoted Halsbury’s law regarding no court can exist etc , he left the call! This evidence was also sent into the court manager but again was clearly ignored!

Be lucky
SS

they do seem to be quite fond of looking the other way when it comes to BOE, what poeple are now having to do is prove thier corner & if a good job is done the judge either railroads or walks away. I got railroaded 3 years back with a speed ticket. totally disgusting.

Halsbury’s law means sod all to them either LS,

SS

had forgotten about this from BOE 1882 sect 23

23 Signature essential to liability.

No person is liable as drawer, indorser, or acceptor of a bill who has not signed it as such: Provided that

(1)Where a person signs a bill in a trade or assumed name, he is liable thereon as if he had signed it in his own name:

(2)The signature of the name of a firm is equivalent to the signature by the person so signing of the names of all persons liable as partners in that firm.

unless you sign thier court paperwork or any documents how can you be held liable? remember its all about charge/discharge who is liable?

comments please

Hi Sparky & others

I was a member on here before and got banned, but i see your post on browsing and felt i had to reply to it, as i am sick of seeing folks getting beaten up in court over this, i don't have all the answers and some one on here may have better answers than i have, but i can tell you one thing for sure, with absolute certainty and that is this:

Never ever, ever refer to these Giro Slips as a Bill of Exchange, Yes technically they could be described as such in terms of their negotiability and the fact they provide a voucher slip, however if you have to go to Court you will lose every time if you refer to a utility Giro Slip as a BoE ..... i am speaking from hard experience and hard lessons learned, i even learned the correct way to execute these instruments pursuant the BoE Act but it matters not.

I am quite sure all of the County Courts have had a memo on these Giro Slips and been told to dismiss any claims made that they are BoE's, because i attended numerous hearings at various County Courts as friend going back years and witnessed the same outcome, and that is that the DJ will tell you it is not a BoE, Dismiss your claim or defence, award costs and probably hit you with a General Restraining Order.

I have the court documents which i could redact (personal data) and show you, but i guess you know all of this anyway now.

The bottom line is even if the Giro slip voucher can be treated as BoE, how would you prove it, are the treasury going to give you confirmation in writing that 'oh yes that's a credit voucher you can use that as a cash' ?

So the District Judges and their cronies have plausible deniability ... you cant win in that rigged theatre

There is the idea of a novated contract or agreement, that is in my view a far better way to deal with these vouchers, if you are going to attempt to discharge the obligation without handing over your sweat equity, (some consideration required) because you have a service agreement with the Corporate sending you the Bill, you do not have a fixed payment contract, but you would have to have it nailed down on case law and know your mercantile law principles inside out, because the Solicitors acting as District Judges are certainly adverse to you, some are so hostile, we had one in DJ McCulloch Guildford CC take over a claimants case by motion and order the claimant to provide all other claims made of the same just so she could issue an extended CRO.

Sincerely:- Don't call it a BoE, and be careful who you take your education and advice from.

As for the Order if you do not receive it in the next 28 days that is an abuse of process and you should seek to stay the order as you would if you received no service, hope that helps.

Good points made there. If the court doesn't accept that something is a Bill of Exchange then any arguments based on the Act are going nowhere.

The definition given in the Bills of Exchange Act can be interpreted to try and make it cover all sorts of things. The reality is that in law and in commerce the term is only ever used to describe an instrument for making payment, that is where the fund from which payment to be made is one that is under your control and that you are authorised to draw on.  An example being a cheque.

If I wrote out a document saying "I, FlyingFish order you Lionshare, to pay Mrs Fish the sum of £100" then that would not be treated as a Bill of Exchange.

TG Article wrote:Hi Sparky & others

I was a member on here before and got banned, but i see your post on browsing and felt i had to reply to it, as i am sick of seeing folks getting beaten up in court over this, i don't have all the answers and some one on here may have better answers than i have, but i can tell you one thing for sure, with absolute certainty and that is this:

Never ever, ever refer to these Giro Slips as a Bill of Exchange, Yes technically they could be described as such in terms of their negotiability and the fact they provide a voucher slip, however if you have to go to Court you will lose every time if you refer to a utility Giro Slip as a BoE ..... i am speaking from hard experience and hard lessons learned, i even learned the correct way to execute these instruments pursuant the BoE Act but it matters not.

I am quite sure all of the County Courts have had a memo on these Giro Slips and been told to dismiss any claims made that they are BoE's, because i attended numerous hearings at various County Courts as friend going back years and witnessed the same outcome, and that is that the DJ will tell you it is not a BoE, Dismiss your claim or defence, award costs and probably hit you with a General Restraining Order.

I have the court documents which i could redact (personal data) and show you, but i guess you know all of this anyway now.

The bottom line is even if the Giro slip voucher can be treated as BoE, how would you prove it, are the treasury going to give you confirmation in writing that 'oh yes that's a credit voucher you can use that as a cash' ?

So the District Judges and their cronies have plausible deniability ... you cant win in that rigged theatre

There is the idea of a novated contract or agreement, that is in my view a far better way to deal with these vouchers, if you are going to attempt to discharge the obligation without handing over your sweat equity, (some consideration required) because you have a service agreement with the Corporate sending you the Bill, you do not have a fixed payment contract, but you would have to have it nailed down on case law and know your mercantile law principles inside out, because the Solicitors acting as District Judges are certainly adverse to you, some are so hostile, we had one in DJ McCulloch Guildford CC take over a claimants case by motion and order the claimant to provide all other claims made of the same just so she could issue an extended CRO.

Sincerely:- Don't call it a BoE, and be careful who you take your education and advice from.

As for the Order if you do not receive it in the next 28 days that is an abuse of process and you should seek to stay the order as you would if you received no service, hope that helps.

Thanks for the info TG, if I wait the 28 days then a ccj will be applied im assuming? So who would I complain/ apply to have the order stayed? And would that then remove the ccj? The court manager has to be held accountable as she has failed in her duties to put all documents in the court file, a few of which were affidavits( no rebuttal made so stands as truth???) just feel so bloody angry that another company can defend another company, when i wrote to the court i pointed there dunns number out but they just simply ignored it

Be lucky
SS

flyingfish wrote:Good points made there. If the court doesn't accept that something is a Bill of Exchange then any arguments based on the Act are going nowhere.

The definition given in the Bills of Exchange Act can be interpreted to try and make it cover all sorts of things. The reality is that in law and in commerce the term is only ever used to describe an instrument for making payment, that is where the fund from which payment to be made is one that is under your control and that you are authorised to draw on.  An example being a cheque.

If I wrote out a document saying "I, FlyingFish order you Lionshare, to pay Mrs Fish the sum of £100" then that would not be treated as a Bill of Exchange.

Lol FF, you using the term Mrs fish made me chuckle, i am known as Mr fish at work, i am a bus mechanic and many many years ago almost every break down I went out to i ended up coming back on the hook lol and the guy that named me that now call the other half Mrs fish lol, just a bit of humour to lighten the day
Be lucky
SS

Apologies if you gave more details of your case elsewhere, but were these documents served on the claimant, and filed with the court within the required timescales?  I'm just thinking that supplementary correspondence sent just to the court manager might not really have been treated as evidence.

Regarding the CCJ, I think you should prioritise getting the written order.  Have you asked the court?  I would do so specifically, don't include the question in among other stuff about affidavits or DUNS numbers that may distract them.  You know how it is, you ask someone five questions and they answer four of them - sods law says the one you really want answered is the one they miss.

Hey SS

I was really referring to the fact that you will be denied the remedy of clearing the default from your records if its not settled within 28 days, that will be the abuse of process if they take 28 days or there about to get the written order they have issued delivered to you, if you wish to appeal the order that is a separate matter, as FF said you must comply with the CPR and practice directions on timescales, on serving evidence by way of notice applications, if you don't you have little chance on appeal, alternatively if you can prove the court manager has omitted your filings and that they were material to your case, you could sue them under tort, but as i said if you have not complied with the procedural rules, they are off the hook on that one. Regards Affidavits yes they are a tool we can use, but when you are in a civil court, you are being governed by Civil Procedure rules, not raw commercial rules, even though the underlying principles of the rules are based upon it to some degree.

Take notice of what FF has stated in his response earlier about the Court not recognizing your claim that a Giro slip is valid per the BoE argument...that is really important

Furthermore, if you are going to try anything unconventional you should expect to be labelled or defamed as FMOTL, so stick to procedures that you can cite back to them and that they are bound by, if for example you are protesting a dishonor on Bill of Exchange, there is a process for that, ok that is not relevant with the Giro-slip vouchers now, as we know, but if you get your certificate of dishonor notarized or your default notice on an acceptance notarized or an affidavit of process for those (for a novated contract offer), you can cite a Rule in the CPR 35 i think it is that binds the court to treat that as fact in evidence...they must, no discretionary woo woo, its a fact on record, final, end of.  

Homework time and Back to the drawing board on this one i think. Yu gave it a go though and that counts for something, all a learning curve.

Best

flyingfish wrote:Apologies if you gave more details of your case elsewhere, but were these documents served on the claimant, and filed with the court within the required timescales?  I'm just thinking that supplementary correspondence sent just to the court manager might not really have been treated as evidence.

Regarding the CCJ, I think you should prioritise getting the written order.  Have you asked the court?  I would do so specifically, don't include the question in among other stuff about affidavits or DUNS numbers that may distract them.  You know how it is, you ask someone five questions and they answer four of them - sods law says the one you really want answered is the one they miss.

Ahh no i did not serve them on the claimant, just the court so its my fault then not knowing the rules

I will write to the court and ask them whats taking them so long! Thanks FF

TG Article wrote:Hey SS

I was really referring to the fact that you will be denied the remedy of clearing the default from your records if its not settled within 28 days, that will be the abuse of process if they take 28 days or there about to get the written order they have issued delivered to you, if you wish to appeal the order that is a separate matter, as FF said you must comply with the CPR and practice directions on timescales, on serving evidence by way of notice applications, if you don't you have little chance on appeal, alternatively if you can prove the court manager has omitted your filings and that they were material to your case, you could sue them under tort, but as i said if you have not complied with the procedural rules, they are off the hook on that one. Regards Affidavits yes they are a tool we can use, but when you are in a civil court, you are being governed by Civil Procedure rules, not raw commercial rules, even though the underlying principles of the rules are based upon it to some degree.

Take notice of what FF has stated in his response earlier about the Court not recognizing your claim that a Giro slip is valid per the BoE argument...that is really important

Furthermore, if you are going to try anything unconventional you should expect to be labelled or defamed as FMOTL, so stick to procedures that you can cite back to them and that they are bound by, if for example you are protesting a dishonor on Bill of Exchange, there is a process for that, ok that is not relevant with the Giro-slip vouchers now, as we know, but if you get your certificate of dishonor notarized or your default notice on an acceptance notarized or an affidavit of process for those (for a novated contract offer), you can cite a Rule in the CPR 35 i think it is that binds the court to treat that as fact in evidence...they must, no discretionary woo woo, its a fact on record, final, end of.  

Homework time and Back to the drawing board on this one i think. Yu gave it a go though and that counts for something, all a learning curve.

Best

Yea I messed up me thinks, the only good thing is it has only cost me the fixed fees which I think were £135, not bad interest for four years of non payment, i think i’ll ask the water co for a loan as their rates are quite good lol(joking)
As said to FF I’ll write to the court and ask em what the hell is taking them so long to send out the order, i have a lot of learning to do clearly, but as someone once said to me not every boxer wins his fights so I guess this is no different and its just a learning curve that i must really take notice of

Be lucky
SS

The really weird thing is, we were with BG and left em to a new agent, they went bust(set up!?) and ofcom put us back to BG, when we left BG we were on prepayment meters and they said there was an amount owing( we had leccy and gas with them) i argued that is that not the idea of pre payment but they said it does not come of the standing charge!
So when the bills come through i just signed and dated the giro, wrote above the voucher about non commercial agreement blah blah, one was around 9 quid the other over 250quid so not small amounts that they probably wouldnt chase for, that was nearly a year ago and have not heard a thing since now BG are the biggest ar**holes out there and i am sure they would have been breaking my door down by now? Just very weird

Be lucky
SS

flyingfish wrote:Hi, surprised nobody else has chipped in.

I did respond through PM.

TG is correct becareful where you get your info from.

Hi all
So finally got the poxy judgement! Have not given me a lot of time, do i challenge it? Its unsigned for one, its taken almost a month to arrive, do i deny it has been received (burden of proof) any thoughts welcomed guys

Be lucky
SS

Hi SS,

you have left too many details to deny it was sent such as the case number top right.

However as it states 'the defendant had no real prospect.....' why not ask 'Was I stitched up, with out any chance of winning in an administration setting?'

Possibly use a prom note & if they get funny state 'can it be shown the bank of england has ever fullfilled on its promises to pay?

LS

The more I read about prom notes the more am convinced it should be the way to go certainly for public 'debts' but as most that come here know there really is no such thing as 'debt' because the £ is FIAT, worthless & fake, a debt in itself, by all means research for yurself.


(2620)

LionsShare wrote:Hi SS,

you have left too many details to deny it was sent such as the case number top right.

However as it states 'the defendant had no real prospect.....' why not ask 'Was I stitched up, with out any chance of winning in an administration setting?'

Possibly use a prom note & if they get funny state 'can it be shown the bank of england has ever fullfilled on its promises to pay?

LS

Hi LS, thanks for pointing out, however the case number was also on the summons so this photo could have been linked to that? I get i should be more secretive with images but i stated it arrived in tex form too, if we had a ‘spy’ on the case it would come out in any case, i comprehend where you are coming from though.
What is an amp?

SS

when sometime using '&' in text it comes out & pain in the arse