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Moon phases


Help required with CCJ defence

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Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Stevro on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:45 am

Hi all,

You may have seen my previous posts. Quick recap: £6k allegedly owed to HSBC is now at CCJ. All their paperwork is in order.

It is my understanding that banks will sell agreements as they are as good as cash as they are promissory notes. Or the debt will be insured. I have stated I will defend on the basis the debt has been paid by other means e.g. trading/selling the agreement or by insurance.

This is my request to HSBC...

I believe that the alleged debt has already been paid and no debt is now owed.

1. I believe HSBC or its derivatives have received compensation, either by selling/trading/commoditising the original agreement as a promissory note / financial instrument.
2. Or/and that HSBC or its derivatives have received compensation by way of insurance against non-payment/default of the debt

I require an affidavit verifying that this alleged debt/account/agreement/note:

1. Has not been sold or traded in any way.
2. That the original note is still in your possession.
3. That HSBC or its derivatives have received no compensation in relation to the alleged debt/account/agreement.

Any advice re wording etc appreciated.

Thanks

S

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by daveiron on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:59 am

Hi stevro,

I would also add for the affidavit .That you require to know if your signature created the funds thereby making you the creditor.If not how were the funds created .

All that you have asked for are the questions they ignore . Why ?

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Stevro on Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:05 am

Thanks again DaveIron. Good point!

I was trying to anticipate what a judge might understand e.g. they have already been paid by insurance rather than tackle the creation of the credit, but worth trying every angle I guess.

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by daveiron on Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:55 pm

I would also get as much info together regarding money creation etc ,there is so much info available including from the Bank of England down. Also a point to remember is Banks cannot lend depositors money.All info which they will not be able to refute should this get to court.

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Stevro on Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:59 pm

Will do. Probably best to ask them to confirm that money was lent/transferred etc.

Has anyone won this argument in court to your knowledge?

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by daveiron on Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:48 am

Hi stevro.

I do not know if this has been tried in court yet.All I can say is this is something I would do without hesitation.
The way money is created ,they cannot prove any loss as they have none. I do not know how much research you have done regarding Banks and money creation, but you are the creditor not the debtor.
We are all searching for the magic bullet & until we try things we will never find it .
I think a good indication will be if any named individual is prepared to refute what we are asking for.

Of course the way you wish to proceed is as always your choice. Should you choose this route & they do appear in court ,please try to keep an accurate record of what happened.


regards dave

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Stevro on Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:39 pm

Hi Dave. I'm very famililar with the banks' role in credit creation. There's a video where ex PC Anthony Carling details his fight with courts in Ireland over a mortgage debt. The judge found against him unfortunately but the case was protracted and expensive for the bank in question.

It's interesting but 2 years ago when I started my research, I never suspected I'd be a test case. Hopefully I can bring everyone here good news.

Obviously this is a harder case as HSBC were the original bank and have an internal litigation dept.

I'm fighting the case on:

1. No money was ever lent. I deposited a promissory note into my account that mistakenly appeared as a debit not credit.
2. They sold my note.
3. Their insurance has paid them

I'll post updates soon

S

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by daveiron on Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:05 pm

Hi,
The insurance thing is not clear whether they have it or not ( I suspect they do) but if they do not ,they only have to swear to that .

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Stevro on Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:17 pm

If they do they're stuffed

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Trustee

Post by handle on Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:09 pm

If you want to go down this road, you make it known that the judge is trustee and you are beneficiary. That is a long road to travel, but it is is the vein of the post.

Alternatively, You can beat these b'tards on their own ground.
1) Termination notice - when served? proof served? ever sent at all?
2) Default notice? - as above
3) Deed of assignment, Notice of asssiognment?
4) Failure to serve statements.
5) Are they regulated to collect consumer credit debts?
6) was there PPI?
etc

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Tiggy on Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:27 pm

Have a look at this guy's blogs, might be of help, but whatever you decide must be written into the defence you submit now (33 days after issue of the claim form), otherwise you can't use it unless you apply to amend your statement of case.

https://consumercreditlitigationanddebtcollection.wordpress.com

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Stevro on Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:49 pm

Thanks all.

Lots of bedtime reading Tiggy! Cheers.

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Stevro on Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:31 am

Ok, I started a new thread, so will revert back to this thread as requested.

My defence has been submitted now and is three pronged. 1) I created the money via a promissory note so owe no money. 2) The note was traded/sold so owe no money. 3) The account was insured against default by HSBC so owe no money.

As you can see, 2 & 3 can't be proven by me and will rely on honesty from HSBC.

1 is my main attack. I've read lots over the years and thought I understood how banks create money from nothing. After looking in more detail at the BOE, ECB and Bundesbank's blurb they freely admit that money is created from nothing, well kinda. They create it from your agreement AKA promissory note. They don't use savings or central bank reserves or other deposits to lend. This much is all clear and has evidence to support it.

So, onto my question. I've always been led to believe that as we created the promissory note (credit agreement) it is our money, just as if we'd created a £10 note. But how can this be true? At law, a promissory note is an IOU. Didn't we only create an IOU?

Thanks

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Stevro on Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:06 pm

This is one of the reasons I start new threads!

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Stevro on Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:39 pm

@Stevro wrote:Ok, I started a new thread, so will revert back to this thread as requested.

My defence has been submitted now and is three pronged. 1) I created the money via a promissory note so owe no money. 2) The note was traded/sold so owe no money. 3) The account was insured against default by HSBC so owe no money.

As you can see, 2 & 3 can't be proven by me and will rely on honesty from HSBC.

1 is my main attack. I've read lots over the years and thought I understood how banks create money from nothing. After looking in more detail at the BOE, ECB and Bundesbank's blurb they freely admit that money is created from nothing, well kinda. They create it from your agreement AKA promissory note. They don't use savings or central bank reserves or other deposits to lend. This much is all clear and has evidence to support it.

So, onto my question. I've always been led to believe that as we created the promissory note (credit agreement) it is our money, just as if we'd created a £10 note. But how can this be true? At law, a promissory note is an IOU. Didn't we only create an IOU?

Thanks

Anyone?

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Tiggy on Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:02 pm

Sorry, no idea.

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Ausk on Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:47 am

@Stevro wrote:
@Stevro wrote:Ok, I started a new thread, so will revert back to this thread as requested.

My defence has been submitted now and is three pronged. 1) I created the money via a promissory note so owe no money. 2) The note was traded/sold so owe no money. 3) The account was insured against default by HSBC so owe no money.

As you can see, 2 & 3 can't be proven by me and will rely on honesty from HSBC.

1 is my main attack. I've read lots over the years and thought I understood how banks create money from nothing. After looking in more detail at the BOE, ECB and Bundesbank's blurb they freely admit that money is created from nothing, well kinda. They create it from your agreement AKA promissory note. They don't use savings or central bank reserves or other deposits to lend. This much is all clear and has evidence to support it.

So, onto my question. I've always been led to believe that as we created the promissory note (credit agreement) it is our money, just as if we'd created a £10 note. But how can this be true? At law, a promissory note is an IOU. Didn't we only create an IOU?

Thanks

Anyone?

This arises because our signature is the kick-off point for the creation of a financial instrument such as a bank "loan," Without our signature they cant create any such instrument. Its argued and rightly so IMO, that because our signature kicks everything off, we in effect, create the instrument or money. All that happens is that the lender grabs the money and then 'lends' it to us.

In reality I would not like to put my house on a court ruling in favour of this view. It may do, some day, when the argument has matured and has gained enough public recognition, and soaked into the consciousness of the court system.

Its rare for courts to rule against the banks. They tend to only do this when an unassailable, irrefutable argument has been put in favour of it.

Magistrates and judges tend to also have mortgages and or other loans from banks. All bank "loans" have an acceleration clause in them whereby the bank can demand the entire 'loan' or 'outstanding balance' be repaid within 30 days..... and magistrates and judges are fully aware of this, no doubt from previous 'quiet words over a few drinks at the club.'

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Stevro on Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:41 pm

Thanks Ausk for the reply and apologies for the late reply.

The BOE use the words 'create money' and 'new money' but don't explain the mechanism i.e. the purchase of the note. For obvious reasons!

Prof Richard Werner stated that "At law, banks are in the business of purchasing promissory notes."

I'm looking for where this is stated in law. Anyone any idea?

I have written to him but he's on strike!

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Stevro on Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:38 am

Another quick Q.

HSBC sent the Claim Form on the 10th Jan. I submitted my defence on time which was acknowledged. No word back since. Have they given up?

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Ausk on Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:53 am

"have they given up?"

I would be reluctant to assume that unless I had it confirmed in writing by letter or email from someone at the court that they have indeed received and accepted my defence.

Sometimes courts delay hearings on the basis of 'informal consultation with important people, importance of another case, urgency and public interest considerations.

If it were me, I would make an enquiry as where it sits in the list of cases to be heard, or has the plaintiffs case been withdrawn.

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Stevro on Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:54 pm

Thanks. The court confirmed the defence. I was just curious as to general timings. I might chase and ask but was hoping after two months that they'd given up.

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Tiggy on Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:17 am

If the claimants have failed to proceed with the claim after 28 days it will be stayed at Court, now either the claimant or the defendant can at any point apply to have stay lifted for either the claim to proceed (if you're the claimant) or be struck out (if you're the defendant).

There is absolutely no limit on the time a claim can remain stayed at court.

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Stevro on Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:32 am

Thanks Tiggy. Would you say applyingtogetthisstruck out is the best tactic or is it better to leave it dormant? Both have pros and cons; leave it to be forgotten or risk making them go ahead.

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Tiggy on Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:47 am

It costs £255 to make an application but if you lose you'll be liable for their costs (which could run into £000's) of defending against the claim.

Unfortunately, you have to weigh up the risks I'm afraid.


Last edited by Tiggy on Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

Post by Stevro on Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:09 pm

Cheers! I'll let it lie I think.

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Re: Help required with CCJ defence

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