DSAR

If you can always avoid copying templates.

All you need for a DSAR is;

'This is a Data Subject Access Request. Please supply any and all Data
you hold for me.' (add name)

daveiron wrote:If you can always avoid copying templates.

All you need for a DSAR is;

'This is a Data Subject Access Request. Please supply any and all Data
you hold for me.' (add name)

Ok thank you

Alas, I have since received another letter from the original creditor, who I have sent 3 letters + to. With no response, therefore no debt to prove.

After saying they have closed my account and but also saying, "any debt should be paid in line with the terms and conditions of the credit agreement as well".

I thought that would be the last of them since they had closed the account and not proved any debt. They have now sent a letter, I assume it is just automated and a minion pressing a button. It says "We recently sent you a default notice about your credit card. As you've not been in touch your credit agreement has now been terminated, and you're required to pay your total outstanding balance of £XXXX" Then it explains how to make payment.

One would assume that if a credit agreement has been terminated then there is no debt to pay. My thoughts was to either ignore it since 3 letters have been received and not responded to, or simply write to CEO and say that this matter has been dealt with, cease and desist.

ANy thoughts appreciated?

Quick reply to whoever sent that. This matter has been dealt with personally
with your CEO.

And what if I didn't reply at all since I believe the matter has been settled and they are just trying their luck and trying to be menacing or departments arent communicating?

Here is my recent correspondence from the OC:

22/05/2023 - (all previous letters have the bank name on the right hand side and all formatted in the same way, eg font styles, justification of text, all are usually addressed to MR XXX XXX) However this letter was clearly typed uniquely as the logo is in a different corner and the font styles and sizes are different to usual, not written in bold and boxes etc, just a hand typed letter and it is addressed to my first name.

I paraphrase:
"Hello First Name only,
Following a recent review we've decided to close you account immediately, in line with our t&cs. Any debt owed to us is to be "RE"paid as per your existing credit agreements ... please know that we made this decision very carefully. Our decision to end our relationship is final.
Signed by noone"

Then on 24/05/2023: I receive a default notice DEAR MR ALL CAPS LAST NAME, logo in the usual corner, bar codes, bolds fonts, capital letters

I paraphrase:
"This is a default notice ... you have broken your agreement which requires monthly payments, you are in arrears, to remedy please pay (not the full alleged balance) by 22nd June. If you do not then we will possibly:
- take court proceedings
- end agreement
- report default
- pass to DCA
- sell to debt purchaser

Yours sincerely, Financial Assist Team"

On 26th June, I receive another automated mail with all the usual fonts and formatting:

"Your agreement is terminated, you have to pay the full balance or we will take you to court etc.

Yours sincerely, Financial Assist Team"

It seems to me like someone high up has closed my account and sent letter 1 personally but has not sent the memo to the other departments?

Has anyone else received such a personalised typed email amid the automated demands?

Many thanks once more!

they claimed to have closed your account in line with their terms and conditions ? so you would need to check the T & C's allowing them to do this.

they have always said ( as far as i can see ) that you still need to make payments on the balance owing. They have now sent a default notice which has not been complied with so have terminated the agreement, all in line with the CCA.

so.... what did they mean when they said the account is closed ? that is important.

and there is still a matter of possible fraud on the account which has never been addressed.

so your next reply needs a lot of thought

waylander62 wrote:they claimed to have closed your account in line with their terms and conditions ? so you would need to check the T & C's allowing them to do this.

they have always said ( as far as i can see ) that you still need to make payments on the balance owing. They have now sent a default notice which has not been complied with so have terminated the agreement, all in line with the CCA.

so.... what did they mean when they said the account is closed ? that is important.

and there is still a matter of possible fraud on the account which has never been addressed.

so your next reply needs a lot of thought

Thanks for the reply, I have already done the three letters (and actually sent more than that,) to which there was no response so I don't think they have anything to go on? So is it even worth a reply since they have not proved any debt.

I may ask about the fraud but they just seem to ignore me when I raise that issue.

Are you referring to this https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1248/made regarding termating contract due to not paid after default notice.

Potentially I could write back saying:

What part of the terms and conditions allows you to terminate the alleged account? (I have found this in their terms and conditions but worth asking)
What does it mean by terminated?
What is going on with the fraud report? (if fraud is reported then they cant terminate the account in accordance with the ts and cs.
As you have not sent a true and certified copy of the original agreement and true and certified copy of the terms and conditions of the alleged debt, despite asking 4 times, I cannot be sure what I am paying for? Please send this documentation so I can settle any alleged debt.

I then may direct them towards my third man who lives in a mailbox while I leave the country! which has seemed to work with another debt.

However this has all been dealt with via the CEO! I've also called their phone number and they have no record of my account so I would not be able to pay!

Daveiron - would you still simply reply to the "Financial Assist Team" that the matter has been dealt with by the CEO. Waylander suggests that I make a different response if I understand correctly?

Follow waylanders advice ,but also make them aware that a tacit agreement
exists with their CEO that no debt exists .
Here is another thing to throw at them if they persist; (2 mins in)

xhttps://ugetube.com/watch/case-law-why-banks-must-dishcarge-documents-and-notes-back-to-you-mp4_HNG6EtHsPxv2pTM.html

Remember you have already offered to settle 3 times.

daveiron wrote:Follow waylanders advice ,but also make them aware that a tacit agreement
exists with their CEO that no debt exists .
Here is another thing to throw at them if they persist; (2 mins in)

xhttps://ugetube.com/watch/case-law-why-banks-must-dishcarge-documents-and-notes-back-to-you-mp4_HNG6EtHsPxv2pTM.html

Remember you have already offered to settle 3 times.

Ok great, so a simple letter such as,

To Financial Assist Team
Cc: CEO

Please tell me what you mean by the account being closed?

What is happening about the investigation of fraud on the account, it was suggested on X 2022 that there was fraud on the account. According to the terms and conditions of the contract, the account cannot be closed until the fraud investigation has been completed. If you have closed the account then I assume the investigation has concluded, please tell me the outcome as this has seriously affected my life in the form of accusations of an alleged debt for which there is no proof that it ever existed (see below), demands for payment, defaults and impacts to credit rating as well as threatening bailiffs and court action. If there has been an investigation into fraud on my alleged account for which I have no recollection of setting up then I deserve to know the outcome.

I have offered to settle the alleged debt with the CEO on more than 3 occasions, however due to non response there is a tacit agreement that there is no debt to pay.

Something along those lines? Anything I definitely shouldn't say. I don't think they have any way they could take further action since I have offered to pay 3 times.

Thanks

I think you may need to reword some of that, to me it reads that you are
stating knowledge of the acc & t&cs.

I suspect this is an attempt at distraction away from your notices.
Remember as your notices are unrebutted, they stand.

daveiron wrote:I think you may need to reword some of that, to me it reads that you are
stating knowledge of the acc & t&cs.

I suspect this is an attempt at distraction away from your notices.
Remember as your notices are unrebutted, they stand.

Yes, i was reading the t'c and c's but i guess I am to deny all knowledge of them as it plays into the idea that I am aware of the alleged account.

i didn't really specify any particular response ?

i was simply suggesting a lot of thought going into your next letter, there is one heck of a lot that has happened with this i read the thread last night.

i predict that they will write to you every month asking you to arrange payment with the usual threats, they may take this to court but i cant see it. What they will do is sell it on and then you will have 6 years of a debt buyer.

it just requires a lot of thought, i would go back to the time when you did your DSAR and their response re fraud, then look at what the ICO said ( they have a record of this now ). then look at the response from the CEO ( was it the CEO or just another dept. ? ) look at the response here too.

read and digest and understand what is being said at this time as far as i know this issue has not been resolved. In my opinion this is where you need to be concentrating as it is important.

I will tell you why i think this:

In respect of such accounts the OC usually sells them on, to a debt buyer, i would expect this to happen here too but there are no guarantees. So..... if this happens, then the debt buyer will tell you that they are now the data controller of all of your data which is standard on their notices of assignment.

well..... that would be interesting considering YOU are not allowed to see a copy of your own data due to possible fraud on the account !!! yet they have sold your data !!!! to a third party.

I hope you see where this would go ? first letter to DCA not any 3 letters or NOCA's but what the F*ck are you doing with my data etc etc.

i dont have access to what the letters actually say re fraud, or ICO or the CEO but this is where i would be looking at this point.

purely my opinion though.

waylander62 wrote:i didn't really specify any particular response ?

i was simply suggesting a lot of thought going into your next letter, there is one heck of a lot that has happened with this i read the thread last night.

i predict that they will write to you every month asking you to arrange payment with the usual threats, they may take this to court but i cant see it. What they will do is sell it on and then you will have 6 years of a debt buyer.

it just requires a lot of thought, i would go back to the time when you did your DSAR and their response re fraud, then look at what the ICO said ( they have a record of this now ). then look at the response from the CEO ( was it the CEO or just another dept. ? ) look at the response here too.

read and digest and understand what is being said at this time as far as i know this issue has not been resolved. In my opinion this is where you need to be concentrating as it is important.

I will tell you why i think this:

In respect of such accounts the OC usually sells them on, to a debt buyer, i would expect this to happen here too but there are no guarantees. So..... if this happens, then the debt buyer will tell you that they are now the data controller of all of your data which is standard on their notices of assignment.

well..... that would be interesting considering YOU are not allowed to see a copy of your own data due to possible fraud on the account !!! yet they have sold your data !!!! to a third party.

I hope you see where this would go ? first letter to DCA not any 3 letters or NOCA's but what the F*ck are you doing with my data etc etc.

i dont have access to what the letters actually say re fraud, or ICO or the CEO but this is where i would be looking at this point.

purely my opinion though.

Thank you for your response and for taking the time to read the thread! Even though the issue is not resolved, surely my 3 + NoCA notices stand and if it went to court then they wouldn't have anything since they have not responded to the 3 NoCAs? So I am surprised it hasn't gone to debt buyer already since they surely have no grounds to keep demanding payments as they haven't proved any debt?

ok... well time will tell

they can't sell it on until a default notice has been served and the account terminated. This has now happened so lets see what happens next.

waylander62 wrote:ok... well time will tell

they can't sell it on until a default notice has been served and the account terminated. This has now happened so lets see what happens next.

Ok good, I just don't really want to go to court, i can deal with DCAs and debt buyers though.

How about a cease and desist notice to the OC?

you could do that but i honestly would anticipate that they will sell this on so get your best argument prepared for when a debt buyer contacts you.

if there is a suspicion that there is fraud on the account and it has not been addressed then they shouldn't sell it on.

also check on the correspondence from the CEO ? they closed the account didn't they , claiming it was in line with their terms and conditions so refer back to that and ask them to provide a copy of the terms and conditions they refer to and also ask them to explain what they mean by closed the account a full explanation and why they did this, ask if it was due to the possible fraud on the account.

if the T & C's they refer to are about termination then they terminated the account prematurely because no default had been served. all these things will help you further down the line especially if they sell it on.

ask these questions of the debt buyer ( who allegedly are the data controller ) and they will not know what the hell they are doing.

just the route i would take from what i have read in the thread.

but you do have other options, depends which approach you wish to take.

waylander62 wrote:you could do that but i honestly would anticipate that they will sell this on so get your best argument prepared for when a debt buyer contacts you.

if there is a suspicion that there is fraud on the account and it has not been addressed then they shouldn't sell it on.

also check on the correspondence from the CEO ? they closed the account didn't they , claiming it was in line with their terms and conditions so refer back to that and ask them to provide a copy of the terms and conditions they refer to and also ask them to explain what they mean by closed the account a full explanation and why they did this, ask if it was due to the possible fraud on the account.

if the T & C's they refer to are about termination then they terminated the account prematurely because no default had been served. all these things will help you further down the line especially if they sell it on.

ask these questions of the debt buyer ( who allegedly are the data controller ) and they will not know what the hell they are doing.

just the route i would take from what i have read in the thread.

but you do have other options, depends which approach you wish to take.

Ok great tips thanks. I've included bits in my next notice.

Looks like the closed the account and wrote to me on 22nd May, then served a default notice on the 24th May, then said they terminated the account at the end of June. This is why I thought it was two departments not communicating, since it looks like they closed it before they served a default, then closed it again!

Which gives me reason to believe that the first closure was due to the fraud and the second one was after the default?! Because surely they need to serve default before closing?! Is there a legal requirement for defaults before closure due to non payments? Is there legislation to refer to? I am doing a bit of research on it for my next letter.t
Thanks

yes there is legislation on it, it is under the Consumer credit act section 87 / 88 , possibly look at section 98 (6) as well.

but be careful dont just go gung ho into this, you need clarification as to what was meant by account closed, the reason and the T & C's used to close the account as they said i writing.

This you must get before looking at the default and termination. Your belief will count for nothing, you need to get this in writing.. So get that letter out and see who sent it, what department and ask them.

Again this is what i would do.

waylander62 wrote:yes there is legislation on it, it is under the Consumer credit act section 87 / 88 , possibly look at section 98 (6) as well.

but be careful dont just go gung ho into this, you need clarification as to what was meant by account closed, the reason and the T & C's used to close the account as they said i writing.

This you must get before looking at the default and termination. Your belief will count for nothing, you need to get this in writing.. So get that letter out and see who sent it, what department and ask them.

Again this is what i would do.  

Hi Waylander,

Thanks I've read and referred to these in my letters and added all your pointers. It's quite a details and inquisative letter.

I'm sending to the CEO. The first letter of closure in line with ts and cs came from the OC - no name or signature, just the name of the creditor. So it will have to go to CEO.

The Financial Assist Team sent the default and 2nd closure - they are at a PO BOX and no specific name, so I thought to just CC them in the letter to the CEO and hope they get it too? Or should it be "notice to principle is notice to agent"?

Thanks a million

personally no

in my opinion you need to get them to state what they meant when they closed the account first and foremost and forget about the default and termination.

the route you are taking may give the OC the opportunity to get the left and right hand to get together and collude a reply to make this all 'fit'

but by just asking the left hand what they meant and clarify their reasons etc, then the right hand will not know what you are doing.

which is what you want, it is better for you if the right hand has no idea what the left hand is saying.

I hope this clarifies my view a bit more, because i dont think you understand what i have been saying nor why i have been saying it.

there isn't a principal and agent as far as i can see, there is no agent yet involved, just a principal which is the OC, please understand what you are saying/ asking and why. Because basic errors like this will just spur them on as they will see it as ' this person doesn't know what they are doing ' just getting template stuff from the internet.

have dealt with many many cases just like this and have seen numerous occasions where the claimant have put forward arguments evidencing the defendant simply is copying and pasting stuff from the internet with no understanding of what they are doing , it immediately makes the Judge turn against the defendant

this is nowhere near court but you have to be ready for all eventualities, i have said what i think will happen with this and i still think the same . But there are no guarantees.

again this is just the way i would do it.

Thanks, so far I have not copied and pasted templates from the internet but have used them as guidance, and looked into their meaning. I do understand what you are saying more now, thank for the clarity - do not give them a chance to get the two different stories together so that the right hand says one thing and the left hand says the other thing so it just tangles them up more and makes no sense and confuses them, very smart, otherwise they will get together and work something that they might get away with. My only problem was that the first closure letter just came from X and noone specific at all so I sent it to the CEO. I will let you know how it goes. Thanks again

Good morning all, since sending the last letter to the original creditor it has now been passed to Moorcroft, who are DCAs, as waylander previously said, how can a DCA have my data, if I cannot have access to my data (due to the OC claiming there was fraud on my account, which is why they never released any information.

I believe DCAs can be dealt with via one letter that is on this forum home page.

How much information would have been given to the DCA regarding this case?

moorcroft will have been given no more information than the account number, your name and address and the balance believed to be outstanding.

In you particular case i would do things slightly differently.

I would write to moorcroft and tell them that the account has been closed ( give them the date of closure or date of the letter ) and then add that the OC have previously written to you and pointed out their may have been possible fraud on the account ( word this in the same way as the OC did in their letter ) , this issue has not been resolved.

politely refer them back to the OC for further information telling them that there must have been some mistake on the part of the OC requesting them moorcroft chase you.

or something like that anyway, see what moorcroft come back with as they will only be acting as an agent for the OC , they are not debt buyers.

again just what i would do.

waylander62 wrote:moorcroft will have been given no more information than the account number, your name and address and the balance believed to be outstanding.

In you particular case i would do things slightly differently.

I would write to moorcroft and tell them that the account has been closed ( give them the date of closure or date of the letter ) and then add that the OC have previously written to you and pointed out their may have been possible fraud on the account ( word this in the same way as the OC did in their letter ) , this issue has not been resolved.

politely refer them back to the OC for further information telling them that there must have been some mistake on the part of the OC requesting them moorcroft chase you.

or something like that anyway, see what moorcroft come back with as they will only be acting as an agent for the OC , they are not debt buyers.

again just what i would do.  

Thanks for the advice. I took your advice in the last letter, however I also added the You And Your Cash version to get out of debt, whereby you send a "letter of authority" so that a third party can act on the alleged debtors behalf whilst the alleged debtor moves out due to health reasons. The third party is a different name at another address. Therefore it keeps the matter away from the alleged debtors home. I believe you can't take someone to court by writing to their previous address...

I have dealt with another debt this way following the You And Your Cash webinars. It seems to have worked for now.

But I was wondering - in the last letter I stated that I would be not at the address on file from last Thursday, (over 7 days from when the letter was sent) and therefore not contactable at the address on file (and that would be my formerly of address), INSTEAD all mail must be sent to the third party, at their address and that should now be the address on file.

However, the letter I received a letter from the OC was to the "formerly of" address, which they have on file but  have been instructed not to write to. Moorcroft also wrote to this address because they have not been given the information about the third party.

Therefore, I was wondering would I write back from the third party who has authority to do so, with a copy of the 'letter of authority' enclosed, the one that was sent and received by the OC? or should I write back from myself (as Moorcroft probably have no knowledge of the last letter so would not question as to why I have actually not vacated the address on their record), and then I could follow your advice, and if necessary, direct them to my third party and their address at a later date.

If I did write to moorcroft as myself, ignoring the letter of authority (because plans changed), I wonder if they would be colluding with the OC and think, "he already sent that letter and said he wouldn't be at the address on file from last thursday," therefore he is lying. I very much doubt they would collude in this way, as you say they "will have been given no more information than the account number, your name and address and the balance believed to be outstanding," and also plans may have changed since the letter was sent! If I am to refer Moorcroft back to the OC then they may wonder why I am still at the same address, as the OC should be aware of the address change.

I realise this may have confused matters, and it would be better to just to take one piece of advice at a time.

In short, what I am saying is:
1. Should I write to moorcroft as if there was no letter of authority/third party and follow the advice you just gave, writing from myself?
2. Do I stick with the letter of authority/third party and write back from the third party but asking the same questions as you have advised?
3. Write a new letter of authority from myself, directing them to the third party, and then the third party can handle the matter in the way you suggested, if necessary.

Thanks for reading, much appreciated.