Duped into guarantor, severe mental health issues

by Solosmurf Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:03 pm

A friend who knows I've been successful using this site contacted me this morning with this situation.

Around 2007 a young man with severe mental health issues who had just been sent home from his latest stay at a mental hospital was asked to stand guarantor by his then girlfriend for an Amigo loan. This was supposedly done on line, he never spoke to or had any direct contact with the company himself - as far as he knows. He does not remember signing anything, no surprise as he's permanently on anti psychotic meds. Needless to say she never paid a penny off the loan. She disappeared soon afterwards. Amigo loans had been sending letters which he never opened and he never responded to any at all.

He owns his own home, which is why it is imperative he now deals with the situation that he now finds himself in.

His current girlfriend started looking after his affairs and in December last year contacted Amigo on his behalf and ended up agreeing payments with them. She did so under duress as they are threatening to take his house. They have been paying £160 fortnightly from his PIP, but they can't afford these payments.

They would really appreciate any assistance with this problem. Surely someone with severe mental issues can't be used as a guarantor for debt? I have suggested they get as much proof from their GP, Psychiatrist etc in writing in the meantime.

by **daveiron** Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:03 pm

Hi, take a look at these 2 below,

I would suggest just enter loans mental health in a search engine ,there appears to be a lot of info there.

http://malg.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Debt-and-Mental-Health-Evidence-Form-V3-June-2017.pdf

https://debtcamel.co.uk/debt-mental-health/

by Solosmurf Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:09 pm

Thanks, I'll have a read.

by waylander62 Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:22 pm

the biggest mistake here was made by his current girlfriend, she should never have agreed to pay them anything !!

I would stop paying immediately, he should deny all knowledge of agreeing to be guarantor for his ex. , he could not possibly have agreed to this due to his mental state ( and get all the proof you can of this ) If his ex never paid a penny then you have a further argument ... that she never intended to pay this back and USED his name and details to get the loan in the first place

As for the payments already made, you can explain this one by telling them that the current girlfriend was only trying to help and did not realize that he had never agreed to be guarantor in the first place, due to his mental health situation she thought she was helping.

Request full disclosure of all documents relating to this loan, when and how his name was included as a guarantor as he NEVER agreed to this, also his current girlfriend needs to explain that since she has found out the truth as to what has actually happened she has been in touch with the FCA who are very interested in this therefore it is imperative that the documents be provided as the FCA wants to see them.

stick it back up the f*ckers

by Solosmurf Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:05 am

I did say she should never have paid anything but she felt that they would take his house. I am seeing her on Thursday now so she can get all the paperwork she has. I spoke to her briefly today and it appears that they are refusing to supply her with a copy of the original loan agreement and keep trying to contact him. I will find out on Thursday exactly what she has and hopefully we'll manage to sort it out.

by **assassin** Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:02 am

This could be a case of fraud, if she acted on his behalf due to mental health issues then she must have his written consent which is a Power of Attorney and under such an agreement she has to adhere to certain conditions if she acts on either financial or medical grounds. If she duped him into something and ran off with the money then this is theft under the theft act 1968 and fraud under the Fraud Act 2006 and both are criminal offences.

If anyone is forced into an agreement under duress then this makes the agreement both void and voidable and a Notice of Rescission must be drafted and sent by registered post immediately, stating that this is a void and voidable contract/agreement and that it was made under duress and financial duress, it should also state that the man is unable to make such decisions as he is a vulnerable person.

DO NOT DO THIS OVER THE TELEPHONE OR BY E-MAIL AND ONLY DO THIS BY REGISTERED POST AND ENSURE YOU DO THE NOTICE AND SIGN IT BEFORE COPYING THE SIGNED NOTICE AND POSTING IT.

by handle Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:37 am

This one of the few times one could plead "non est factum". If he as a disability and been tricked or defrauded.

Also, good news is there is case law on this. A husband borrowed on a property him and his wife owned. The bank tried to repossess the property. The wife claimed she knew nothing of the borrowing and had rights over the property before the bank. The repossession failed. When i remember the case i will post it up.

by waylander62 Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:50 pm

I agree with assassin and handle, non est factum is a very good point raised by handle there.

assassin is also right with raising the fraud issue.

first and foremost

I would write to them and request that they cease and desist the telephone calls, and that this will only be dealt with in writing, also tell them that mr x, suffers from mental health issues and that the constant phone calls are causing alarm and distress. Then explain in writing what i have put in my last post, that he is not aware of being msde a guarantor, and also put that his current girlfriend was the one who made the arrangements to make the payments because she was worried about his health and did not realize until now that he did not agree at any time to be guarantor. Also request a copy of the agreement along with the terms and conditions.

keep it simple ask only what you need to and stop the phone calls. the threat to take his house is just a threat as they would have to go through the courts and win before they could even begin to try and take his house. Send the letter as soon as possible.

by **assassin** Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:24 pm

I wouldn't Waylander and for one simple reason, if they harass a disabled person they can be charged with criminal charges of harassment and you can also hit them with a huge counterclaim for their actions as psychological damages are now readily accepted.

by waylander62 Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:23 pm

assassin wrote:I wouldn't Waylander and for one simple reason, if they harass a disabled person they can be charged with criminal charges of harassment and you can also hit them with a huge counterclaim for their actions as psychological damages are now readily accepted.

that is quite interesting, i didnt know that. a request for documentation however needs to be made and also a denial that he ever agreed to be guarantor if they cannot come up with anything then assassin my be of great assistance in bringing a claim against them for fraud and harrassment.

interesting case this one

by Solosmurf Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:38 pm

Thanks everyone for your help. There was a mix up on the dates and the intermediary who asked me to post got it wrong, it's not 2007, his girlfriend only started responding last December by which time it had been about a year since the loan was taken out. I will look at the non est factum and tell them about it when they come over tomorrow.

by handle Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:22 am

When you go down the criminal route you are in a completely different jurisdiction. It comes out of civil as criminal takes over. The case then goes from "the balance of probability" to "beyond reasonable doubt" which is much harder to prove. Keep it financial and civil in the distress and harassment angle as far as you can. Pushing this should drive them away.

by waylander62 Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:12 pm

handle wrote:When you go down the criminal route you are in a completely different jurisdiction. It comes out of civil as criminal takes over. The case then goes from "the balance of probability" to "beyond reasonable doubt" which is much harder to prove. Keep it financial and civil in the distress and harassment angle as far as you can. Pushing this should drive them away.

would tend to agree with this,

IF you manage to see them off and you have enough evidence against their behaviour you could consider bringing a criminal prosecution against them at a later date.

by **assassin** Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:46 am

handle wrote:When you go down the criminal route you are in a completely different jurisdiction. It comes out of civil as criminal takes over. The case then goes from "the balance of probability" to "beyond reasonable doubt" which is much harder to prove. Keep it financial and civil in the distress and harassment angle as far as you can. Pushing this should drive them away.

You can use both very effectively if you use it correctly, keep it as a civil claim and follow it up with criminal charges, you hit them with the double whammy, as long as you get the civil side sorted then the criminal side is pretty much a foregone conclusion as the party has admitted liability.

by Solosmurf Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:56 pm

Thanks again for the advice.

I have seen the paperwork and it's a joke. The only signature on it is the usual scribble by Amigo's representative, illegible and no printed name. They also sent a letter purporting to be from Lincoln County Court but it's actually a debt collection service in Salford, passing itself off as the Court Cash Collection Management, the signature on that is eerily similar to the contract.

Payments of around £107.00 have been taken from his account since mid December until May when his card expired and none since. The 'Court' paperwork was issued this month.

They have all his health records which prove he had just been out of hospital for less than a week when the application was made. They have been to the police about charging the ex with fraud but for reasons best known to themselves have not pursued that as yet.

Do we send a letter to Amigo demanding proof of signature? If Amigo has no signed contract is there any chance of getting his money back?

by waylander62 Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:02 pm

It is difficult without seeing the paperwork and knowing what has exactly happened,

But if they were to write to amigo stating what has been mentioned before,
he did not agree to be guarantor
he has a mental illness
why payments were made at the time ( in error by girlfriend trying to help )
etc

you have now mentioned for the first time court papers ? has this been to court ? this would or may change everything !
help us here, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing

by **assassin** Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:25 am

If Amigo has produced paperwork which purports them to be a court then there is a case of deliberate and premeditated fraud by them as impersonating a court is a criminal offence and you have the evidence.

With Waylander here, a little more detail would be handy.

by **assassin** Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:29 am

As an aside, if this claims to be paperwork from a County Court then it should have a case number on it, ring the Lincoln County Court and ask for the details of the alleged claim; they will most likely deny any knowledge of the claim and you have another criminal charge of obtaining monies by deception, the court will confirm that no orders have been made which is your evidence.

by waylander62 Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:13 am

assassin wrote:As an aside, if this claims to be paperwork from a County Court then it should have a case number on it, ring the Lincoln County Court and ask for the details of the alleged claim; they will most likely deny any knowledge of the claim and you have another criminal charge of obtaining monies by deception, the court will confirm that no orders have been made which is your evidence.

totally agree with this

take a good look at what has happened here, from a previous post it looks like the loan was only taken out less than 2 years ago !? Give us more info. maybe a timeline of events ( approx will do )

if what you are saying is true they are guilty of a number of criminal offences here.

by Solosmurf Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:52 pm

There are two different women involved - ex friend with benefits duped him into being guarantor then cancelled the direct debit on her account two days after getting the money and hasn't been seen since although they know where she lives.

The new girlfriend only has a letter signed by him saying she has responsibility for dealing with his affairs, no power of attorney. She opened his mail to pay his bills and found out about the loan from a letter which stated they intended to take his house. When he heard that he panicked so she contacted them and agreed payments. They accepted her acting on his behalf with no proof except his verbal permission over the phone.

The paperwork she showed me was a computer generated agreement from Amigo Loans, no signature except for a scribble from their representative, no printed legible name. The other was a claim form In The County Court Money Claims Centre which I've been told is just another debt collection agency, based in Manchester.

I'm going away on business until Friday and will be seeing her again when I get back. I will contact the Court but I really don't think it's an official document. I have tried to attach a photo but I'm not sure if it loaded. (New tablet)

by waylander62 Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:27 pm

Solosmurf wrote:There are two different women involved - ex friend with benefits duped him into being guarantor then cancelled the direct debit on her account two days after getting the money and hasn't been seen since although they know where she lives.

The new girlfriend only has a letter signed by him saying she has responsibility for dealing with his affairs, no power of attorney. She opened his mail to pay his bills and found out about the loan from a letter which stated they intended to take his house. When he heard that he panicked so she contacted them and agreed payments. They accepted her acting on his behalf with no proof except his verbal permission over the phone.

The paperwork she showed me was a computer generated agreement from Amigo Loans, no signature except for a scribble from their representative, no printed legible name. The other was a claim form In The County Court Money Claims Centre which I've been told is just another debt collection agency, based in Manchester.

ok, i think i get it, my opinion has not changed on this she needs to write to them denying he agreed to be guarantor, stating he is not and was not in a fit mental state to agree to such a thing, etc UNLESS they have taken him to court and won ! which it sounds as though they may well have done, hence the threat of taking his house. you need to find out for sure if this has already been before the courts if it has the argument you have is still the same but not with amigo, it will be to convince the courts, VERY IMPORTANT

I'm going away on business until Friday and will be seeing her again when I get back. I will contact the Court but I really don't think it's an official document. I have tried to attach a photo but I'm not sure if it loaded. (New tablet)

unfortunately i cannot see any uploaded documents

by Solosmurf Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:24 pm

Hi Waylander

I have asked about going to Court and he definitely hasn't been taken to court. The paperwork is not from a court, it' appears to be from a debt collection agency, making out it's the granting of their right to collect the debt on behalf of Lincoln County Court. . They threatened to take his house when she first called them, which is why they set up the payments. I have started the letters for them and would like to include the Notice of Recission, but as I haven't found much info about that online, like if there's a time limit and exactly what it should contain so I might just do the letter as you state above, do some more research and send that separately. In the meantime i have told them to ignore Amigo loans both letters and calls.

by waylander62 Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:27 pm

when you say you have started the letters for them what do you mean ?

by Solosmurf Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:34 pm

Just that I have written more or less what you stated about him not being mentally fit to be guarantor but usually I do a couple of drafts to try to ensure I've covered all the relevant points. So far it's basically addresses and that statement.

by waylander62 Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:40 pm

ok fine, i was worried that you had started the 3 letter process with them, which i dont think is right for this one because he is not the debtor and never was.
would really like to see this letter from the court . allegedly from the court anyway

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