Court

Hi,

I found on GetOutOfDebtFree lots of people ask the same question.

I won my case on the default notice and the agreement, maybe we can have a page with the personal information removed, to show people what a credit agreement looks like, when it gets thrown out of court, which people can add to.

I have noticed these debt collection firms now are producing more paperwork when requested. It would be good to show some of the paperwork they produce, which would not stand up in court.

if you cover up your details and take a photo you can up load as attachment and show everyone ,if you make a thread about it others can add theirs too.
if the attachment is too big you may have to reduce the quality in an image editor (like paint), i could then move the thread to its own section so it doesnt move down the list (like sticky thread)

Pete, it's always worth considering that DCA's are third party interlopers and unless you admit to having a debt with them, they haven't a leg to stand on no matter what they say or do. And should they come up with some document that purports to have your signature (sorry, autograph) on it, then the response is straight forward...I don't recall signing that.

Hi Landlubber

you are right DCA are third party interlopers , they buy debts on a spreadsheet and most of the time no paperwork, this why we use the three letters system Ceylon created , also because they buy these debts, it does not mean they legally own them .

some times we may have to go to court , and we just cant say to the judge i dont recall signing that , they will make up paper work from computer spreadsheets but this cost them time and money , and yes the court lets them do this ,but they must true copies,
the most important document is the credit agreement this should have date signature ,

so if they have all the paperwork they win in court but not always this what we talking about above , i will put a copy of a credit agreement which failed in court , but i will cover up all my details and other members can do the same if they have ,i think this will be a good tool i never seen on the other site.

This is where people need originals and not copies as a copy doesn't contain the original signature.

There was one case in court where a solicitor produced a copy of a credit agreement with no signature , the defendant said where is my signature on this agreement ,
the judge said you must of signed the agreement to get the credit card ,
he lost this case,

but he took it to appeal court and won ,

in court they except copies but they must be true copies , this is the same with default notice they can make it up from a computer spreadsheet ,

but it must have your name address and card number on it , if not then its not a true copy , in my case they put my new address on it , i let the court know , then they made a new copy with correct address, but this time wrong card number , in court i said i never received a default notice , and produce a copy of my credit report , it was not on there

solicitor said bank sent one , a judge will except this

i said what address did it go to , and said the second default notice had wrong card number ,

if you do ever receive a default notice it must have your name ,address card number , a bank cant sell your debt to any one with out sending a default notice,

but i always say double check any information given

Debt Collectors and Court

If you get a letter from a debt collection firm, follow the 3 letter process which is on this site. If after the 3 letter process you receive a threat of court action, you need to send the Pre-Action Protocol letter shown below.


SENT BY RECORDED DELIVERY Your address

Your ref.: 

Their address

Date 

Dear Sirs,

Re: Your Client – xxxxx Limited
Pre Action Conduct - Request for Information 

With regard to your letter dated xxxxx 2015, which stated Legal Action would be taken, I take this to be a Letter before Action under the above named Pre Action Conduct Protocol and as such I am responding accordingly. 

As you have indicated you are acting on behalf of xxxxx Limited in this action, I assume you are authorised to accept service of documentation, therefore, please accept this request for Information sufficient to understand the claim being threatened and as such is in accordance Section 3 of the Pre Action Conduct, by way of Service Upon You and your client.

As I have never entered into any Legal Agreement or Contract with your client, for any monies or specifically for the alleged amount of £xxxxx; and I neither accept nor acknowledge the assertion any debt has been Legally and Absolutely Assigned to your client, I therefore, request the following documentation under Pre Action Conduct Section 6 (c) as proof of your Clients assertions of a Legal Obligation, to be provided to me within 40 days of the post marked date of this letter.

I. Pursuant to s.77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA1974) a copy of the Original Signed Consumer Credit Agreement, along with a copy of the original Terms & Conditions and any and all subsequent changes in said Terms & Conditions.

II. Statements of the Account referred to, including details of all payments made and calculation of how interest was charged against each item, leading to the Alleged Debt of £xxxxx.

III. Also, as this is an Alleged Debt, I believe Default Charges may have been applied to the Account and as such may be unlawful under the Unfair Consumer Contract Terms Regulations 1999, therefore, I would request details of each and every Default Charge applied to the Account (i.e. if the charge was for ‘Administration’ what Administration was undertaken to support the Default Charge) along with details of any Interest Charged against each Default Charge applied.

IV. In accordance with Section 87.1 Of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (as amended) a copy of the Default Notice from the original owners of the Alleged Debt and Certified Copies of how this was served upon me.

V. A copy of the Legal / Absolute Assignment of the Agreement, including a copy of a Duly Executed Deed of Assignment and / or Deed of Tripartite Novation; and 

VI. In accordance with Section 196 of the Law of Property Act 1925, Certified Copies of how I was served with the Alleged Legal Assignment. 

VII. A copy of the Alleged Notice of Assignment sent by the original creditor to the Defendant and again, in accordance with Section 196 of the Law of Property Act 1925, Certified Copies of how this was Served upon me.

Should proceedings commence against me and your client fail to provide each and every document requested, I will make an Application to the Court to Stay your Clients claim until the request is complied with and request the Court impose Sanctions against yourself and your client for failure to adhere to the provisions of the above mentioned Practice Direction. 

Also please be aware, each document listed is required to provide absolute and legal proof of your client’s contention of a legal indebtedness towards them and again, should your client fail to produce said documentation and Proceedings Commence against me I will apply to the Court to Stay your Clients claim Until said documentation is received. 

As a part of my defense I will re-request production of each and every document under an appropriate Civil Procedure Rule, along with a request under CPR Part 39.a (3.3) for the original of every document upon which you intend to rely be brought to any subsequent hearing for examination.

Please note, where I have mentioned a document and there is in your clients possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

I look forward to your response in due course.

Yours faithfully



Now you may find the same as the 3 letters, they will not respond to your request. Or if they do, it will be a letter saying they are not required or some partial information. But remember you want the information stated above.

One reason they wont respond, as member landlubber states DCA's are third party interlopers and this is true. They buy debt, pennies in a pound. When they buy this debt it is on a spreadsheet with limited information and remember they don't just buy your alleged debt, they buy thousands. So for them to produce the paperwork, it costs them time and money and they will not have the paperwork anyway.

If they do provide any paperwork, double check all the information is correct.

If you receive a claim from court

When you receive an Acknowledgment of Service in with the Service Pack, you need to fill in the form and send it back within 14 days. If you send it by post, send by recorded delivery, but most people these days fill it in online.

On the claim form you will notice solicitor's and court costs, in the 3 letters it states you are willing to pay if they can prove they legally own the alleged debt with the information asked for.

When I was in court, the judge said I had every right to ask for this information. So on your claim form, state why should you pay solicitor's and court costs when they ignored all the requests for proof.

Inside the claim form it will have:

1: I intend to defend all of this claim
2: I intend to defend part of this claim
3: I intend to contest jurisdiction

Only you can decide, which one to tick.

This is very important. Inside you have an income and expenses sheet, make sure you put down everything that you have to pay out for. If you do have to pay, the judge can see what you can afford.


Not going to court.

If you do not go to court, you will lose by default and you will have a County Court Judgment (CCJ) put against you and this could result in having county court bailiffs at your door. I know this may be very scary going to court, because I have been there and I know, but by going to court, you have a chance to win.




If you intend to defend all of the claim

After you send the response pack, back to the court by post or online.


Send CPR to the claimant and one to their solicitor

If the claim is over £10,000 send them a CPR 31.14 or if it is under £10,000 send them a CPR 18 to the claimant and their solicitor, not the court. This is a request for information again, and they have so many days to reply.

Most of the time they will not reply, the reason is, no paperwork.

This is where you need to be fast.

Dear Sir,

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

CPR 31.14 Request [If over £10,000]

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) County Court.
I confirm having returned my acknowledgment of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

[Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request for the production of the agreement mentioned in the Claim Form and on which you rely. That request was ignored] [delete if no such request was delivered]
Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

1 The agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.
2 The deed of assignment*
3 The notice of assignment*
4 the default warning letter*
5 The default notice*
6 The termination notice*
7 [any other documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim]*
* delete if not mentioned or mentioned by inference in the Particulars of claim.
[Although your claim is for a sum which is not more than £5,000.00 and will in all likelihood be allocated to the small claims track for determination upon my delivering a defence, at this moment in time I have not delivered my defence and the case has not been allocated to a track. In consequence the provisions of CPR 27(2) are of no effect and you should not seek to avoid compliance with your CPR 31 duties by claiming otherwise]#
# delete if claim for a sum exceeding £5,000.00

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

In accordance with CPR 31.15(c) I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defense. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defense.

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defense, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully




Dear Sirs,

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

CPR18 Request for further information.

On the Xxxxx 2015, I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the Northampton County Court.
I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest your entire claim.

Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request for the production of the Agreement referred to in the Particulars of Claim, and on which you intend to rely. That request was ignored.

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR18 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of each of the following documents mentioned in your Particulars of Claim and is made by way of Service upon You:

1.The agreement/contract, including the specific Terms at the point the alleged Agreement was made and any subsequent changes. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the originals should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.
2.The deed of assignment
3.The notice of assignment
4.The default warning letter
5.The default notice

6. I deny any indebtedness to the Claimant but particularly deny they are due statutory interest on the alleged amount of £xxx.xx and as such I request full disclosure of the amount the Claimant alleges to have paid for this alleged debt.

7. Also, your Particulars of Claim state the action is brought for Breach of Agreement, yet you have failed to identify the specific Statutory Instrument you have commenced proceedings under. Therefore, I would be request details of the Statutory Instrument under which you have brought proceedings. 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 18 duties and ensure that the documents I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Failure to produce each and every document referenced within the Particulars of Claim (detailed above) will result in an Application to the Court for an Order of Disclosure. 

Your CPR 18 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any versions to include an obligation to recover and preserve such versions, which are now in the possession of a third party.

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

Yours faithfully


This is when you need to be fast. If they do not respond to you after the deadline, you need to apply to the court for unless order. You can download this online it is form N244. But to apply for this there is a court fee involved. You will have to contact your local court for their fee's.

Please note you need to make three copies for the court or they will send it back to you. And also keep a copy for yourself, but always keep copies of any paperwork you do send.

You may have to go to court, but what you are doing is taking them to court. You are requesting for the information which you have been asking for. You want proof they legally own the debt and you have every right.

This is what the court sent to the claimant. If they fail to provide the information the case will be struck out and you win. See below a copy which was sent to the claimant when I went to court.




If they do not send the information to the court, the case will be struck out.

These days they are producing paperwork if they have it. It does not have to be the original, they can reconstruct all information from computer data. For instance the default notice, this is one of the points I won in court.

A bank can not sell your debt to anyone without first sending you a default notice. The default notice must have your name, address, account number and a number of days to give you a  chance to pay back any alleged debt.

Please note if the bank says they sent it, the court will believe them.

On my default notice, first they put the wrong address and account number, so they could not prove they sent me a default notice. Also it was not on my credit report, which I produced a copy of in court.


The Credit Agreement

The credit agreement is the most important document. If you look at the credit agreement I posted below on here, you could see my name, the banks stamp, does not need their signature, and date. But you could not read the actual agreement of interest rate. I argued in court that this was not a true copy, and even though it has got a date and my signature, is this the correct credit agreement. I said “if this was the credit agreement I signed, I put an extra clause in it, stating if I can no longer pay this debt at any time, then the debt will be void.” The judge said “did you?”, I said “Well if you could read it, you could see.” So this credit agreement failed in court.

In a test case a defendant won because the judge agreed, all reconstructions must be true and accurate.





As you can see above, on this occasion I won in court. It takes a long time, and lots of hard work and help from members here.

Remember we are not solicitors, always double check any information given to you.

On a last note, always check from first instance, make sure the alleged debt is not statute barred. This is 6 years after the default notice or from last payment. If you pay a penny, you will start from the beginning again, even if the debt is statute barred and is not enforceable in court it does not stop them writing to you. If the debt is statute barred and you do get a claim form, from the court, don't ignore it. The court will not know it's statute barred, so fill in the claim form and put on it, this debt is statute barred, but please make sure it has been 6 years from default notice or last payment.

Also remember debt collection firms are not enforcement. They have no special powers.

Once a troll emailed me, this was probably a debt collector who said “Debt firms give up because they find it too hard to chase the debt. And it was nothing to do with the letters we send.” But the trick is to make the debt collectors give up before it gets to court.

IF you are still not sure how the three letters work become a member and ask your Questions, we cant give legal advice but Advice on experience then it up to you to do your own research .

Good reading on unenforceable credit agreements is linked below -

https://paulatwatsonssolicitors.wordpress.com/tag/unenforceable-credit-agreement/


petesomething

so the court can enforce the unenforceable if they deem they have seen "true copies" of the agreement , but there may be many points to show that the copy is not true which need to be picked apart in court , otherwise they will rule in the claimants favor.
 The letters ask for this info and offer remedy before court proceedings so if they only present this info in court with a claim against you then you could say they have ignored your conditional offer to pay and wasting court time with a vexatious claim which could have been sorted out of court.


moving this to the debt forum!

Most people who end up going to a small claims court have not got the money to see if the paperwork is all legal. And then it is you against their solicitors in court.

Their solicitor argued and she had a laptop in front of her stating test cases.

There was one test case where the claimant won with a similar credit agreement to what i had, and it was 100% luck, i read this test case on the internet the night before. And i said to the judge "If the solicitor wants to be 100% honest with you, she would tell you this went to an appeal court, in which the defendant won this case."

All copies must be accurate and true, this is where a bit of research is needed.

You would think solicitors would be honest, but the judge would know if it was a true copy or not. But unfortunately you have to state your case.

Honesty? now theres an interesting word Pete, in any court its a play on words and as any good solicitor will tell you, "its what you say and how you say it" and this is what they are taught to exploit, also there is "there are many ways of presenting the truth" which is another play on words.

Hi assassin


you are 100% correct,

Defending cases is all very well, but first, establishing some facts ...

1. Status - Are you a [wo]man or a person?
2. Can the Judge show his Judicial Oath? / What's his name?
3. Have you requested details of the complaint/claim?
4. What Jurisdiction is it in?
5. Which Crown is bringing the case?
6. Who (Justice of the peace) signed off the summons?

Hi bimmer nice to meet you

1, status- are you a [wo]man or a person,,,,,,,I am something , petesomething

Likewise Pete

You walk onto their ship and try to defend yourself, you'll always lose, unless they want you to win.

Remember, no truth or fact will be heard in a court of law.

Good morning bimmer

you may be right they have to let some win

but i must say i won with help from good members and hard work and i dont want new members thinking that they cant win in court because you can, if any guest need help simply join

yes, you're right, it's just a bit of a battle, but challenging their authority is as well

There's two ways of dealing with court, fight or challenge.

I should correct, "unless they want you to win", or there is overwhelming evidence in your favor. Then it would be too obvious for them to deny you your victory.

What does it mean "The application to strike out is dismissed?"

Surely you wanted your application to strike out to be accepted / granted?

well go to court and show us your way ,when they ask for your name just say i am a man, lets see what happens they may let you win , if not the county bailiffs will come to your home take your goods that you have worked hard for, you may of lost your job or have become  very ill , this will not stop them drilling your locks ,maybe the kids will not mind

i won my court case on evidence they never had,

THIS IS THE WAY I WOULD DO IT,

start a new post and say how to win your way,

DCA make the courts millions of of pounds each year , , like ceylon said they in it all together,

you win by evidence they do not have.

the sad thing is bimmer i dont think they care if you do challenge them , your family your life is nothing for them and its  not about right and wrong  , THEY JUST WANT YOUR MONEY, if you win i dont care how they say it

Forget how I would do it, I'm interested in the 2nd Order you posted.

Don't you think it's worded strangely?

I'm not trying to be vexatious

Hi bimmer,

As I read it the application to strike out, is no longer applicable as the claim is dismissed.(the original claim from the creditor).
At first I read it the same as you did.

Being a cynic, it seemed to me that the court dismissed the case to strike out, therefore the claim stood, so they could charge the Cestui que trust.

We'll never know

Hi bimmer

No you are not being vexatious, its great you are giving your point of view , and i think it good to be a cynic , some times we may not all agree with each other but we all are on the same side , keep giving your points of view , its great.

the way they word it is not very clear

you ask for true info.
you are presented with reconstituted evidence not true copys.
they take you to court hoping the judge will side or you dont turn up (trying it on!)
if you turn up and dispute the authenticity of the reconstituted evidence the judge may then order them to present better evidence (this is what the 3 letters did!!!)
so to say they are ineffective is not true , the judge asks for the very same thing he doesnt use the 3 letters though .
Then this evidence is not presented he strikes out the claim. Exactly as you tried to do with the 3 letters!!!but were simply ignored.
 I think after a strike out we should be counter claiming for vexation using the 3 letters to show your honor and the strike out due to no evidence to show their dishonor!
what do you guys think?

Hi lopsum

Most people lose by just not turning up for court. What makes me mad is they apply to court without any proof of any alleged debt.

I had to do the unless order and the N244 form, which cost me £50 at the time for the court to order them to supply me with the information. But why does the court allow this? If they have not got the proof, why are they taking us to court.

To clear another point up, on my default notice they put my new address which i did not live there at that time, unless I had Doctor Who's Tardis. They falsified the default notice, so i did another N244 form to have the case struck out, but they made it the final hearing. The court did not strike it out because they put the wrong address, which was an address from the future and fraud. But on the second default notice they supplied, they put the correct address for that time, but this time they put the wrong credit card number. So they didn't strike it out for the first default notice, and i won my case on the default notice not being true copies and of course the credit agreement.

Basically they can make up these papers and the court lets them do this. But what the courts should be doing is fining these people, or we should be allowed to sue them. But like i said, these debt collection firms are making the courts thousands of pounds each year.