Getting 3 points removed from a driver's license?

by hughythomas Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:17 pm

Hi guys,

I had a speeding ticket through last year. I started an administrative process on the camera partnership (Notice of Conditional Acceptance requiring they supply proof of claim). I included the following maxims at the start:

·[size=9]       All are equal under the common law.[/size]
·[size=9]       Consent makes the law. A contract between the parties, which can acquire force only by consent.[/size]
·[size=9]       A contract founded on a base and unlawful consideration, or against good morals, is null.[/size]
·[size=9]       No one is obliged to accept a benefit against his consent.[/size]
·[size=9]       Upon the plaintiff rests the proving – the burden of proof.[/size]
·[size=9]       A matter must be expressed to be resolved.[/size]
·[size=9]       The power which is derived [UNITED KINGDOM/SURREY POLICE] cannot be greater than that from which it is derived [the people].[/size]
·[size=9]       You ought to know with whom you deal.[/size]
·[size=9]       He who fails to assert his rights has none.[/size]

I then asked them to provide the following proof(s) of claim:

1. Proof that I was acting under a UK Driving License as a ‘Driver’ at the time of the alleged contravention and not in a private capacity.
2. Proof that I was performing some function of commerce for ‘UNITED KINGDOM’.
3. Full disclosure of the identity of the man or woman who is claiming to have suffered harm, injury or loss as a direct result of my alleged actions. This party must also demonstrate the nature of the injury.

I didn't receive any meaningful reply and assumed they had just bugged out (this was over a year ago). Upon renewing my insurance we've discovered there is 3 points on the license which surprised me given that a) I never admitted any liability to the claim and b) they never proved their claim.

So I guess the question is has anyone played any games getting points removed from the license? I was thinking along the lines of defamation and making it known to the CEO of the company that I am commercially injured and going down the route of misconduct in public office. I'm aware of Crimebodge but don't think its applicable in this instance as this is more the commerce game side of things in relation to my specific case.

Thoughts?

by **daveiron** Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:23 pm

Did they go through these processes ?
https://www.gov.uk/speeding-penalties

by flyingfish Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:09 pm

If you weren't aware of the court case at which you were convicted, for example if you didn't receive the summons (or probably SJPN nowadays), then you can get it set aside with a Statutory Declaration. That will reverse the conviction and remove the points, however unless there's something in your defence they will probably restart the proceedings.

I'm interested in how it got to 3 points though. Normally in these cases they prosecute for failing to name the driver, which gives 6 points. Presumably somewhere in your correspondence something was included which implied that you were the driver at the time.

by hughythomas Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:35 pm

Well, I think my administrative process stopped it in its tracks ie. I didnt pay any money or go to court or go on any courses.

I haven't received any summons or anything like that either.

So, I think they either a) thought what the hell lets slap the points on or b) its automated.

Flyingfish, check proof of claim 1. "Proof that I was acting under a UK Driving License as a 'Driver' at the time of the alleged contravention and not in a private capacity". I challenged them to produce this in 2019 and received nothing back.

I've started authoring a Notice of Interest that I will send to Chief Constable because there is also the small matter of my outstanding fees (to the tune of about £300.00). I'm not on their payroll and as slavery was abolished in 1833, I charge for any unnecessary administration I have to undertake in relation to unverified claims.

I think its rather ballsy of them to ignore due process and The Bill of Rights 1689:

Grants of Forfeitures.

That all Grants and Promises of Fines and Forfeitures of particular persons before Conviction are illegall and void.

by **LionsShare** Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:50 pm

Hi hughythomas, my ticket in 2018 I went about it a slightly different way to you but certainly challenged various assumptions such as am I under agreement/contract to give this info etc, but things for me went very awry & got totally railroaded. I did have a court case & I think my very big mistake was not turning up as I a man have no business in their commercial courts, doing all in words on paper. I also used:

Grants of Forfeitures.
That all Grants and Promises of Fines and Forfeitures of particular persons before Conviction are illegall and void.

YES IN THAT THEY IGNORED, so do not get too hung up on that as a defense.

It would definatly appear that challenging an assumption based on commerce taking place is the way forward.

I ended up with 6 for failing to furnish & close to £1k total fine.

What ever happens I wish you well.

LS

by **LionsShare** Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:54 pm

It was the case that the fine would have to be paid before points were added, so people would pay over the fine amount & would get a refund of the difference which was never cashed so the points would not go on, but now things have changed & they go straight for the points so as to increase your insurance if they cannot extract monies from you otherwise.

This could turn out to be quite an interesting thread & it would be great to have as many as possible contribute & keep it going.

by **Mrblue2015** Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:04 pm

(Moved to ‘General’ section)

by **LionsShare** Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:06 pm

I have been speaking to someone about your predicament & something that may (not fully sure) apply:

where you state: "1. "Proof that I was acting under a UK Driving License as a 'Driver' at the time of the alleged contravention and not in a private capacity"."
Have you not given the game away you were behind the wheel? If yes, it is the case. THEY now deem you were behind the wheel, that's may be why you have 3 points.

The fact you challenged the commerce could be why NO court, & NO fine. THEY are determined 1 way or another to force you to participate in commerce like it or not, & 1 way or another you WILL pay (increased insurance premeiums).

Its just a thought, it may help you in some way.

LS

(1449)

by flyingfish Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:37 am

I think LS is correct, somewhere in your correspondence they seem to have found something leading to believe you were the driver. Otherwise the conviction would have been 6 ponts with the MS90 endorsement code. I presume your licence shows SP30 or SP50? You can check your licence online https://www.gov.uk/view-driving-licence

I still feel that some of the correspondence is missing. I assume you received a NIP incorporating a request to identify the driver. 3 points tells me it was a minor speeding offence, so there should have been an offer of fixed penalty, or a course. Now it's possible that the nature of your first reply led them to think you would reject either COFP or course, and therefore they may have put it straight to court, but even then you should have received a summons or SJPN. And it's odd that they're not chasing you for the fine.

Are the addresses on your licence and the registration document correct?

Was the conviction in a Magistrate's court, or do you not know?

by **LionsShare** Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:10 pm

The following comes from the same conversation I had about your predicament & just thought including it, may be helpful:

"Proof that I was acting under a UK Driving License as a 'Driver' at the time of the alleged contravention...." might be better written:

"In sending your section 172 notice to me, please provide proof of claim that i was driving at the time of the alleged offence"; which may be read as both:

"how do you know it was me?" and "Do you have proof that i was travelling in a commercial capacity?"

Thus introducing ambiguity without dishonour and keeping line of communication open.

Yes, this would have prompted them to 'encourage' you to name the driver but that gives you the opportunity to ask them to define the term 'driver' and/or 'driving'...

just a further idea.

by **daveiron** Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:14 pm

Added to that, They have six months in which to prosecute ,therefore
the more questions you ask the longer you may be able to drag things out.
Too late in this case of course but something to bear in mind. Also you keep
your replies to just within the time limits they give you .There is a lot of ways
to drag it out with a bit of imagination.

by flyingfish Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:09 pm

Another good point. But remember that it's six months from the date of the alleged offence (in most cases). So the s172 offence would be 28 days after you received the s172 request in your name. That might be some time after the speeding offence.

by **LionsShare** Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:11 pm

THEY can shift the date of trial if they shift the date of complaint:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/43/section/127

127 Limitation of time.

(1)Except as otherwise expressly provided by any enactment and subject to subsection (2) below, a magistrates’ court shall not try an information or hear a complaint unless the information was laid, or the complaint made, within 6 months from the time when the offence was committed, or the matter of complaint arose.

what THEY did with me was to make a formal complaint close to the 6 month limit & it gave them another 6 months to get me into court. IE THEY have a total of 6 months to get ?? into court after a complaint is made to prosecute, its not just 6 months from the date of the offense (although it should be IMO). For me it was close to 12 in total.

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