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Moon phases
Digital Signature
4 posters
Page 1 of 1
Digital Signature
May I ask for advice please?
If a CC was signed digitally on application by me rather than a wet copy on an agreement dating back to mid 2000’s and the SAR shows a copy signature by the banks, what legal position does this create?
I recall there was a change to new credit card applications from 1997? But I am struggling to find info and comprehend what it means if this ever went to court.
Thank you for reading.
If a CC was signed digitally on application by me rather than a wet copy on an agreement dating back to mid 2000’s and the SAR shows a copy signature by the banks, what legal position does this create?
I recall there was a change to new credit card applications from 1997? But I am struggling to find info and comprehend what it means if this ever went to court.
Thank you for reading.
Biggiebest- Not so newb
- Posts : 70
Join date : 2021-09-02
Re: Digital Signature
Is there anyone who can answer my question please?
Copy agreement signed with copy signature by bank but no wet signature on anything by me.
Copy agreement signed with copy signature by bank but no wet signature on anything by me.
Biggiebest- Not so newb
- Posts : 70
Join date : 2021-09-02
Re: Digital Signature
Electronic signatures have been accepted for most matters for many years. This derives at least in part from the common law practices of accepting signature by initials only, by stamp or by an "X". Whether it is acceptable in your particular case will depend on the facts, for example evidence that you showed intent to enter into the agreement, that it was in fact you making the electronic signature, and whether you went on to accept any benefits from the agreement.
The Law Commission report from 2019 gives a clear run down of the position at that time, including examples of electronic signatures that have been found valid in court ..
https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/electronic-execution-of-documents/
The Law Commission report from 2019 gives a clear run down of the position at that time, including examples of electronic signatures that have been found valid in court ..
https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/electronic-execution-of-documents/
flyingfish- dedicated
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Join date : 2017-03-22
assassin, LionsShare and Biggiebest like this post
Re: Digital Signature
fLYINGFISH,
Noted and thank you!
Noted and thank you!
Biggiebest- Not so newb
- Posts : 70
Join date : 2021-09-02
Re: Digital Signature
Also worth noting, and unless I'm mistaken, that an 'agreement' is no longer valid if the original agreement including Ts & Cs but where those TCs & Cs are now 'lost'...
Mrblue2015- Moderator
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Join date : 2017-06-11
assassin likes this post
Re: Digital Signature
flyingfish wrote:Electronic signatures have been accepted for most matters for many years. This derives at least in part from the common law practices of accepting signature by initials only, by stamp or by an "X". Whether it is acceptable in your particular case will depend on the facts, for example evidence that you showed intent to enter into the agreement, that it was in fact you making the electronic signature, and whether you went on to accept any benefits from the agreement.
The Law Commission report from 2019 gives a clear run down of the position at that time, including examples of electronic signatures that have been found valid in court ..
https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/electronic-execution-of-documents/
What this doesn't make clear is that a digital signature can be used instead of a persons written signature, to make a clear clarification here, PERSONS SIGNATURE and this is where they try to abuse the system by using a companies digital signature and not a persons signature. In such cases a person is not making a claim when a company digital signature is used and this contravenes contract law as contract law is under common law and not statutory law which is consensual law and a lower form of law which is bound by superior law.
This in itself is fraudulent as any company employee can make a claim in writing and use a company digital signature and not their own digital signature and this ensures any claims they make have no voracity in law (real law) and cannot be upheld unless the claim is made against the company under vicarious liability; and identifying the individual making such claims is very difficult. if not impossible and this makes proving their true intent impossible along with any requests for information.
I received court documentation last week from the High Court and it always contains wet ink signatures of the Judge, ask yourself why?
assassin- Admin
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Join date : 2017-01-28
Location : Wherever I Lay My Head
daveiron and Mrblue2015 like this post
Re: Digital Signature
If I read the first post correctly this particular credit card was apparently applied for online, and the effective "signature" was a digital action of some kind. The vast majority of consumer agreements are made this way nowadays, and I don't think there's any chance of a court finding it invalid for want of a "wet ink signature". The companies signature is not in question, as the company is not denying that they made the agreement.
Unless anyone has a precedent they can point to, where an online agreement was found invalid on either of these bases.
I think a more helpful line might be the Consumer Credit Act. If the OP makes an official request under s78 and the creditor does not provide a compliant agreement with 12 working days, then the account becomes unenforceable until it is provided.
It's worth thinking about the timing. If this is likely to reach court then ideally you want put in you CCA request early enough that those 12 working days have expired before you have to write your defence. But putting it in too early might give then time to get their house in order.
Unless anyone has a precedent they can point to, where an online agreement was found invalid on either of these bases.
I think a more helpful line might be the Consumer Credit Act. If the OP makes an official request under s78 and the creditor does not provide a compliant agreement with 12 working days, then the account becomes unenforceable until it is provided.
It's worth thinking about the timing. If this is likely to reach court then ideally you want put in you CCA request early enough that those 12 working days have expired before you have to write your defence. But putting it in too early might give then time to get their house in order.
flyingfish- dedicated
- Posts : 870
Join date : 2017-03-22
Re: Digital Signature
Thank you everyone for your comments.
I think the topic demonstrates the reason why we should use the New letter process rather than the old.
I think the topic demonstrates the reason why we should use the New letter process rather than the old.
Biggiebest- Not so newb
- Posts : 70
Join date : 2021-09-02
Mrblue2015 likes this post
Re: Digital Signature
assassin wrote:flyingfish wrote:Electronic signatures have been accepted for most matters for many years. This derives at least in part from the common law practices of accepting signature by initials only, by stamp or by an "X". Whether it is acceptable in your particular case will depend on the facts, for example evidence that you showed intent to enter into the agreement, that it was in fact you making the electronic signature, and whether you went on to accept any benefits from the agreement.
The Law Commission report from 2019 gives a clear run down of the position at that time, including examples of electronic signatures that have been found valid in court ..
https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/electronic-execution-of-documents/
What this doesn't make clear is that a digital signature can be used instead of a persons written signature, to make a clear clarification here, PERSONS SIGNATURE and this is where they try to abuse the system by using a companies digital signature and not a persons signature. In such cases a person is not making a claim when a company digital signature is used and this contravenes contract law as contract law is under common law and not statutory law which is consensual law and a lower form of law which is bound by superior law.
This in itself is fraudulent as any company employee can make a claim in writing and use a company digital signature and not their own digital signature and this ensures any claims they make have no voracity in law (real law) and cannot be upheld unless the claim is made against the company under vicarious liability; and identifying the individual making such claims is very difficult. if not impossible and this makes proving their true intent impossible along with any requests for information.
I received court documentation last week from the High Court and it always contains wet ink signatures of the Judge, ask yourself why?
Your missing the point, when a digital signature is used it must be the digital signature of the person/employee signing the document digitally, not a person using a company digital signature.
assassin- Admin
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Mrblue2015 likes this post
Re: Digital Signature
Not sure why you're stressing that, OP is clearly stating that it was his digital signature, see the very first post - "If a CC was signed digitally on application by me"
flyingfish- dedicated
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Join date : 2017-03-22
Re: Digital Signature
flyingfish wrote:Not sure why you're stressing that, OP is clearly stating that it was his digital signature, see the very first post - "If a CC was signed digitally on application by me"
Hardly stressing, but no doubt he digitally signed but who signed for the company and is this the persons signature or the company signature, and this is the real issue.
assassin- Admin
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Re: Digital Signature
Apologies for interjecting, but I do so only in the hope to potentially add further clarity.
When Assassin is saying “persons” here he means the person who works for the company. And this person using a ‘generic’ company digital signature does not count. This person would have to use (if they can’t use a hand written wet signature) a digital signature that is unique to them. A ‘generic’ company signature is not unique to that person.
When Assassin is saying “persons” here he means the person who works for the company. And this person using a ‘generic’ company digital signature does not count. This person would have to use (if they can’t use a hand written wet signature) a digital signature that is unique to them. A ‘generic’ company signature is not unique to that person.
Mrblue2015- Moderator
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daveiron, assassin and LionsShare like this post
Re: Digital Signature
I do understand the point, but not its relevance to this case. The OP has not stated whether the company signature was or was not of an individual. And surely it would only be relevant if the company was denying making the agreement.
As always I'm happy to be corrected if there is any precedent where a credit agreement has been found unenforceable on that basis.
As always I'm happy to be corrected if there is any precedent where a credit agreement has been found unenforceable on that basis.
flyingfish- dedicated
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Re: Digital Signature
No correcting, just clarification in terms of the context for “person”.
Mrblue2015- Moderator
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assassin likes this post
Re: Digital Signature
It is relevant as this information is needed, if a company employee has signed a document with a company signature and not their own signature it becomes an invalid contract and this is crucial to know; it is also crucial because most documentation is signed with a company signature and these organisations are abusing this to their own advantage.
A credit agreement is a contract in law and if the contract is invalid then everything that follows is invalid and we need this information in regards of their future dirty tricks because you cannot take a company to court under their system as you have to first take the individual and then the company under vicarious liability. remember, we have to be ahead with their dirty tricks so we know what they are for the future as they evolve them as we evolve solutions.
A credit agreement is a contract in law and if the contract is invalid then everything that follows is invalid and we need this information in regards of their future dirty tricks because you cannot take a company to court under their system as you have to first take the individual and then the company under vicarious liability. remember, we have to be ahead with their dirty tricks so we know what they are for the future as they evolve them as we evolve solutions.
assassin- Admin
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Location : Wherever I Lay My Head
Mrblue2015 likes this post
Re: Digital Signature
Biggiebest wrote:May I ask for advice please?
If a CC was signed digitally on application by me rather than a wet copy on an agreement dating back to mid 2000’s and the SAR shows a copy signature by the banks, what legal position does this create?
I recall there was a change to new credit card applications from 1997? But I am struggling to find info and comprehend what it means if this ever went to court.
Thank you for reading.
If you signed the document digitally then fine, but did the bank sign and how did they sign? was it the signature of an individual, if so then this is fine and a valid contract has been formed, was it the digital signature of a company? if so then this constitutes an invalid contract and any invalid contract CANNOT be enforced.
,and the SAR shows a copy signature by the banks
This suggests it is the signature of the bank and not an individual, if a corporation it is a dead entity and anything dead cannot sign anything, thats English Contract Law, remember ECL is common law and these documents are created under statute law and common law always trumps statute law and numerous precedents show that a lower system is trumped by a higher system.
assassin- Admin
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Mrblue2015 likes this post
Re: Digital Signature
Makes perfect, lawful sense. No further clarity whatsoever is needed now…
And if you look at the bigger picture, which is implied by Assassin, it is disgusting that the banks knowingly abuse ECL. And people wonder why sites like this exist…
Banks: behave LAWFULLY and then perhaps (educated) people will respect you a little more!
And if you look at the bigger picture, which is implied by Assassin, it is disgusting that the banks knowingly abuse ECL. And people wonder why sites like this exist…
Banks: behave LAWFULLY and then perhaps (educated) people will respect you a little more!
Mrblue2015- Moderator
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assassin and LionsShare like this post
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