Average Speed Check Zones

by brownowl Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:29 pm

I drive a relative's company car, I am a named driver and it is in my possession at all time. A notification of intended prosecution has come through to the company, the company have forwarded to my relative so i have to give some details. I will give my details as they can assume I was driving. However when I do get the NIP, and I naturally will ask for photographic evidence so I can verify the driver, they will be unable to provide any as average speed check cameras do not take photos of the driver. So how could I know if the driver was me?

The last time I had a ticket, I sent the NIP to another person at my address who sent it to someone at another address until the 6 months elapsed. No further action.

by **Mrblue2015** Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:31 pm

(Moving post to 'General' section)

by flyingfish Wed Jun 28, 2023 5:39 pm

brownowl wrote:I drive a relative's company car, I am a named driver and it is in my possession at all time. A notification of intended prosecution has come through to the company, the company have forwarded to my relative so i have to give some details. I will give my details as they can assume I was driving. However when I do get the NIP, and I naturally will ask for photographic evidence so I can verify the driver, they will be unable to provide any as average speed check cameras do not take photos of the driver. So how could I know if the driver was me?

Firstly did the company literally "forward" the NIP (strictly s172 request) to your relative? Only the person it's addressed to need reply. If it was sent to the company, and no reply received, the company will be prosecuted and not your relative.

On your question "So how could I know if the driver was me?" the answer is they don't, they rely on you returning the form with your details and prosecute a more serious offence if you don't. This not satisfactory but its been appealed right up to the European court. I suppose they can't think of a better alternative.

by brownowl Wed Jun 28, 2023 8:16 pm

flyingfish wrote:
brownowl wrote:I drive a relative's company car, I am a named driver and it is in my possession at all time. A notification of intended prosecution has come through to the company, the company have forwarded to my relative so i have to give some details. I will give my details as they can assume I was driving. However when I do get the NIP, and I naturally will ask for photographic evidence so I can verify the driver, they will be unable to provide any as average speed check cameras do not take photos of the driver. So how could I know if the driver was me?
Firstly did the company literally "forward" the NIP (strictly s172 request) to your relative? Only the person it's addressed to need reply. If it was sent to the company, and no reply received, the company will be prosecuted and not your relative.

On your question "So how could I know if the driver was me?" the answer is they don't, they rely on you returning the form with your details and prosecute a more serious offence if you don't. This not satisfactory but its been appealed right up to the European court. I suppose they can't think of a better alternative.

The NIP was sent to the company. The company doesn't want to be prosecuted and my relative doesn't want the company to be or for him to get in any trouble. So understandably I need to give him some details.

The last time this happened it was with a speed camera that took photos.
- I gave my details to the company
- Police wrote to me
- I waited 28 days then asked for photos
- I didn't get any photos but an excuse not to not provide photos
- I got another letter and waited 28 days and then put someone else's name and address down and sent it off.
- The other person took the 28 days then asked for photos
- They received the photos
- He then said it was someone else who lived in a foreign country and gave an address in that foreign country.
- We haven't heard anything since and it has been 2 years.

by flyingfish Wed Jun 28, 2023 9:37 pm

brownowl wrote:The last time this happened ..

If you can spin it out for six month it's statute barred and no action can be taken. For the speeding, that's six months from the alleged offence date. For s172 it's six months from the 28 days given to respond. So six months and 28 days from when the request is served.

by brownowl Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:33 pm

flyingfish wrote:
brownowl wrote:The last time this happened ..
If you can spin it out for six month it's statute barred and no action can be taken. For the speeding, that's six months from the alleged offence date. For s172 it's six months from the 28 days given to respond. So six months and 28 days from when the request is served.

S172 was forwarded to relative and they had to give my details as I am named driver, so the company will fill it out. I will then be sent a S172 - will it be 6 months from when I receive the S172 (not yet received). Or is it 6 months from the first S172 which the company received on 22nd June 2023 to the company?

The alleged offence was 18th June - 35mph in a 30 zone !

by flyingfish Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:46 pm

brownowl wrote:S172 was forwarded to relative and they had to give my details as I am named driver, so the company will fill it out. I will then be sent a S172 - will it be 6 months from when I receive the S172 (not yet received). Or is it 6 months from the first S172 which the company received on 22nd June 2023 to the company?

Unfortunately it sounds like the company is on the ball. Regarding statute barring, the six months starts from the date on which the offence was alleged to have been committed (with some exceptions that don't apply here). So in the case of the underlying speeding allegation, it's six months from 18th June. In terms of s172 it would start 28 days after you receive the request in your name.

So the clock on the speeding offence carries on ticking, but for s172 it resets if a different person is named. If it reaches the stage where someone received an s172 request less than 28 days before the speeding times out, they can reply at the last minute and avoid both speeding and s172 convictions.

by brownowl Fri Jun 30, 2023 1:02 pm

flyingfish wrote:
brownowl wrote:S172 was forwarded to relative and they had to give my details as I am named driver, so the company will fill it out. I will then be sent a S172 - will it be 6 months from when I receive the S172 (not yet received). Or is it 6 months from the first S172 which the company received on 22nd June 2023 to the company?
Unfortunately it sounds like the company is on the ball. Regarding statute barring, the six months starts from the date on which the offence was alleged to have been committed (with some exceptions that don't apply here). So in the case of the underlying speeding allegation, it's six months from 18th June. In terms of s172 it would start 28 days after you receive the request in your name.

So the clock on the speeding offence carries on ticking, but for s172 it resets if a different person is named. If it reaches the stage where someone received an s172 request less than 28 days before the speeding times out, they can reply at the last minute and avoid both speeding and s172 convictions.

Thanks, I am confused as to the difference of the speeding offence and the s172?

Speeding offence has 6 months to be statute barred
S172 has 6 months and 28 days from the speeding offence to prosecute but resets every time a new name is named - so whoever is named last has 6 months and 28 days to be prosecuted?
But if the 6 months elapses for the speeding offence then the s172 is also become void
So that means if it was passed around by a few people then it would be void after 6 months regardless of the s172 being reset?

Why are the two different things?

Thanks for your time and help

by flyingfish Fri Jun 30, 2023 2:44 pm

S172 has 6 months and 28 days from the speeding offence to prosecute but resets every time a new name is named - so whoever is named last has 6 months and 28 days to be prosecuted?

That's it pretty much.

But if the 6 months elapses for the speeding offence then the s172 is also become void

Not quite, there's a trap that would be such a shame to fall into. Even after the speeding has timed out, failure to respond correctly to an s172 request would be an offence, even though sending the response would have achieved nothing at their end. Some have fallen into this, receiving the s172 too late for the speeding to be pursued and therefore ignoring it.

So that means if it was passed around by a few people then it would be void after 6 months regardless of the s172 being reset?

As above, speeding void but s172 still enforceable.

by brownowl Fri Jun 30, 2023 5:02 pm

flyingfish wrote:
S172 has 6 months and 28 days from the speeding offence to prosecute but resets every time a new name is named - so whoever is named last has 6 months and 28 days to be prosecuted?
That's it pretty much.
But if the 6 months elapses for the speeding offence then the s172 is also become void
Not quite, there's a trap that would be such a shame to fall into. Even after the speeding has timed out, failure to respond correctly to an s172 request would be an offence, even though sending the response would have achieved nothing at their end. Some have fallen into this, receiving the s172 too late for the speeding to be pursued and therefore ignoring it.

So that means if it was passed around by a few people then it would be void after 6 months regardless of the s172 being reset?
As above, speeding void but s172 still enforceable.

Ok so even if the speeding is unenforceable after 6 months, the s172 is enforceable 6 months from the last named driver, it has to be completed even if the speeding is unenforceable otherwise you can be prosecuted? so you can be prosecuted for not filling out the s172 but not for the speeding ticket but if you fill out the s172 you can't be prosecuted for either.

Is that right?

How ridiculous!

by flyingfish Fri Jun 30, 2023 5:21 pm

That's it. I guess there could be a public interest argument against prosecuting s172 when the underlying offence has timed out.

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