"We are applying for a warrant to change your meter"

They get around this very simply, they cannot fit a pre pay meter without your consent so what they do is to insert a clause into the main contract which you consent to when you agree to a supplier, when you sign up with a new supplier you have pre agreed to this clause.

assassin wrote:They get around this very simply, they cannot fit a pre pay meter without your consent so what they do is to insert a clause into the main contract which you consent to when you agree to a supplier, when you sign up with a new supplier you have pre agreed to this clause.

Yes they all do that nowadays; but surely contracts containing such clauses as those are unfair by virtue of the suppliers monopoly position and because of the lack of knowledge on the part of the householder as to exactly what they are agreeing to. This lack of knowledge on the part of the householder would also be compounded by the lack of disclosure of exactly what the capabilities of a future meter are by the by the company.

Surely, it must be unconscionable conduct for a monopoly supplier to expect a householder to agree to something the householder is completely in the dark about because of the lack of disclosure by the company?

The word cartel comes to mind but then, that requires a class action.

I wonder if there is anything in the Fact that my supplier was Sainsburys not British Gas so I would be totally unaware of any clauses that BG may have in its contracts

Any way I sent the dispute letter off yesterday, I will let you know what they come back at me with....

hopefully they will halt the proceedings, especially as they strung me up before in one of their venues(with Mortgage) and having to go twice this time;once for gas and once for electric may be all too much (I wonder why they have done that as the joint giro slip/bill was always combined?)

Many Thanks

J

Ausk wrote:

assassin wrote:They get around this very simply, they cannot fit a pre pay meter without your consent so what they do is to insert a clause into the main contract which you consent to when you agree to a supplier, when you sign up with a new supplier you have pre agreed to this clause.

Yes they all do that nowadays; but surely contracts containing such clauses as those are unfair by virtue of the suppliers monopoly position and because of the lack of knowledge on the part of the householder as to exactly what they are agreeing to. This lack of knowledge on the part of the householder would also be compounded by the lack of disclosure of exactly what the capabilities of a future meter are by the by the company.

Surely, it must be unconscionable conduct for a monopoly supplier to expect a householder to agree to something the householder is completely in the dark about because of the lack of disclosure by the company?

The word cartel comes to mind but then, that requires a class action.

There is no monopoly supplier in the UK, you can choose to take Gas / Electricity from any number of providers within the UK.

toolapcblack wrote:I wonder if there is anything in the Fact that my supplier was Sainsburys not British Gas so I would be totally unaware of any clauses that BG may have in its contracts

Any way I sent the dispute letter off yesterday, I will let you know what they come back at me with....

hopefully they will halt the proceedings, especially as they strung me up before in one of their venues(with Mortgage) and having to go twice this time;once for gas and once for electric may be all too much (I wonder why they have done that as the joint giro slip/bill was always combined?)

Many Thanks

J

Did you read what a Section 39 dispute was and raised that type of dispute?

Also, there is help available if you're in financial difficulty, have a look at this thread and how this poster managed to get written off a large chunk of debt - the last thing you want is a prepayment meter fitting, they will charge you for it, take a percentage of everything you pay in and the tariffs are higher than normal.

https://goodf.forumotion.com/t1301-how-i-halved-my-debt-in-6-months-successes-against-mmf-wageday-advance-1monthloan-247-moneybox-safety-net-credit-payday-uk-and-wonga-so-far

Isn't everyone in financial difficulty?
An example of this is back in the late 80s-early 90s(to save up to put myself through College), I worked in a warehouse(permanent nights in a freezer) order picking earning £15,000 per annum and you could buy a house in my Town for between £20-25,000, and those same houses are now £175,000+ and that type of job will only net you low £20,000s these days if you are lucky.

Even though I have a qualification my salary is that meagre I still work doing take away deliveries in some evenings in order to make ends meet.

I just think if we keep bending over and just paying the extortionate rate for these necessities things will only get far worse that is one of the reasons I have not paid(that and the fact that these elites abuse children, etc etc).

so you think I should just pay up? and let them shaft us further and further

toolapcblack wrote:Isn't everyone in financial difficulty?
An example of this is back in the late 80s-early 90s(to save up to put myself through College), I worked in a warehouse(permanent nights in a freezer) order picking earning £15,000 per annum and you could buy a house in my Town for between £20-25,000, and those same houses are now £175,000+ and that type of job will only net you low £20,000s these days if you are lucky.

Even though I have a qualification my salary is that meagre I still work doing take away deliveries in some evenings in order to make ends meet.

I just think if we keep bending over and just paying the extortionate rate for these necessities things will only get far worse that is one of the reasons I have not paid(that and the fact that these elites abuse children, etc etc).

so you think I should just pay up? and let them shaft us further and further

It's entirely up to you what you do, but if they manage to convince a magistrate to allow the entry, with two prepayment meters you'll be totally shafted as you'll be working to pay for gas & electricity at the highest tariff and at the same time you'll be paying back the debt.

I am trying to help you head them off at the pass.

Ok thanks

i will see if the dispute letter has the desired effect first.


you wouldn't actually believe what happened a DCA have been round(from an old council tax debt that i dealt with on GOODF), talk about trying to kick a man when he is down!

Hi All,
So do I just need a Gas Certificate For the Meter? or the boiler and cooker?
As I was just quoted me £90 and I think that's well steep (and the guy was recommended to me)
Cheers
J

If they are applying for a warrant under safety issues then a gas certificate is all the evidence you need of a safe installation; if they apply for a warrant to change your meter then it isn't a safety issue and a gas certicicate is of no value.

toolapcblack wrote:Hi All,
So do I just need a Gas Certificate For the Meter? or the boiler and cooker?
As I was just quoted me £90 and I think that's well steep (and the guy was recommended to me)
Cheers
J

the safety cert should cover everything "gas" in the house - a full inspection.

As for electric I would not worry too much as if there was a real problem any safety devices especially RCD, RCCB etc should trip constantly. MCBs + wire fuses sometimes will not trip/blow because of insufficient fault current (MCB) & fusing factor for fuses. In these situations it is possible to have an electrical fault & the fault is NOT large enough to isolate the circuit.

no mention of any safety concerns in the letter(just unpaid bill) so I cannot see how they can just make it into one? Surely they can only make court proceedings on the stated facts mentioned in the letter...I will enter the letter into evidence as it states quite clearly states nothing about safety! so therefore they cannot make it into one.

ferk 'em

hi toolapcblack ,

agree they should not be doing any of this under H&S but as we all know by now they are all liars & want nothing other than a false entity - currency. If they do physically get those meters in you can find UK wide registered but NOT suppliers to install new meters. Rip out those PAYG meters & install new analog meters - done!

As they have been paid they don't have any right to force you to accept PAYG meters. You don't have to accept what they want you to.

Also remind them:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1989/29/schedule/6

(2)The power of a supplier under sub-paragraph (1)(a) or (b) may not be exercised—

(a)as respects any amount which is genuinely in dispute (disregarding for this purpose a dispute under section 39 or regulations made under it); and

LionsShare wrote:hi toolapcblack ,

agree they should not be doing any of this under H&S but as we all know by now they are all liars & want nothing other than a false entity - currency. If they do physically get those meters in you can find UK wide registered but NOT suppliers to install new meters. Rip out those PAYG meters & install new analog meters - done!

They're NOT applying to change the meter on safety grounds, that's Section 1 of the Act, they've applied under Section 2, so as Assassin says a gas certificate would have no value.

LionsShare wrote:Also remind them:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1989/29/schedule/6

(2)The power of a supplier under sub-paragraph (1)(a) or (b) may not be exercised—

(a)as respects any amount which is genuinely in dispute (disregarding for this purpose a dispute under section 39 or regulations made under it); and

It's a dispute under Section 39, so to raise a Section 39 dispute you have to read and understand what Section 39 is.

You can't just put anything you feel like, if it's not in Section 39 them it's not a genuine Section 39 dispute !

Hi All
after re reading the Acts I have come to a different conclusion, but I need to be sure when I go next week.

....2(1)Where a customer has not, within the requisite period, paid all charges due from him to an electricity supplier in respect of the supply of electricity to any premises or the provision of an electricity meter, the supplier may—
(a)install a pre-payment meter on the premises; or

(b)disconnect the premises,

So to me this states if I have not paid all utility charges they can do one of two things; disconnect or put meters in? So I have proof that I have paid with honour by a lawful remedy, i.e.. by endorsement, under the Bills of Exchange Act which they do accept as their "memorandums of association" clearly states that they do:

https://www.centrica.com/sites/default/files/20100510_agm_memorandumofassociation.pdf page 6

4.22  To draw, make, accept, endorse, discount, negotiate, execute and issue cheques, bills of
exchange, promissory notes, bills of lading, warrants, debentures and other negotiable or
transferable instruments



My interpretation of the next section is just to do with them recovering charges for the installation of said PAYG meters, NO? So maybe I should not of quoted the section 39? As this should not now happen as the Utilities have been paid(although they will not agree so it is in dispute!)

and the supplier may recover any expenses incurred in so doing from the customer.
(2)The power of a supplier under sub-paragraph (1)(a) or (b) may not be exercised—

(a)as respects any amount which is genuinely in dispute (disregarding for this purpose a dispute under section 39 or regulations made under it); and

They can accept but there's nothing to say they will accept.  It's the same with cheques, anyone can decide to accept a cheque. Or as is happening now, they may decide not to, and there would be nothing you could do to force anyone to accept a cheque.

I don't think you're reading it correctly, the bit about recovering expenses is in respect to the previous paragraph in Section 1).  The (2) denotes the start of a completely separate section.

Tiggy wrote:

LionsShare wrote:hi toolapcblack ,

agree they should not be doing any of this under H&S but as we all know by now they are all liars & want nothing other than a false entity - currency. If they do physically get those meters in you can find UK wide registered but NOT suppliers to install new meters. Rip out those PAYG meters & install new analog meters - done!

They're NOT applying to change the meter on safety grounds, that's Section 1 of the Act, they've applied under Section 2, so as Assassin says a gas certificate would have no value.

hi tiggy,

Correct if I am wrong but are they not trying to gain entry under the guise of H&S? The actual change of the meter is something else?

Have I said explicitly they are trying to change the meters under H&S? Or have I missed something?

Tiggy wrote:

LionsShare wrote:Also remind them:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1989/29/schedule/6

(2)The power of a supplier under sub-paragraph (1)(a) or (b) may not be exercised—

(a)as respects any amount which is genuinely in dispute (disregarding for this purpose a dispute under section 39 or regulations made under it); and

It's a dispute under Section 39, so to raise a Section 39 dispute you have to read and understand what Section 39 is.

You can't just put anything you feel like, if it's not in Section 39 them it's not a genuine Section 39 dispute !

Hi again,

after reading section39 that appears to me to be disputes raised over failure of supplier to perform ? in some way? a dispute is raised leading to... possibly compensation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1989/29/section/39

39 Electricity supply: performance in individual cases.

[F1(1)The Authority may, with the consent of the Secretary of State, make regulations prescribing such standards of performance in connection with the activities of electricity suppliers, so far as affecting customers or potential customers of theirs, as in the Authority’s opinion ought to be achieved in individual cases.]

(2)Regulations under this section may—

(a)prescribe circumstances in which [F2electricity suppliers] are to inform persons of their rights under this section [F3or their rights under section 39A];

(b)prescribe such standards of Performance in relation to any duty arising under paragraph (a) above as, in the Director’s opinion, ought to be achieved in all cases; and

(c)prescribe circumstances in which [F2electricity suppliers] are to be exempted from any requirements of the regulations or this section,

[F4and, if the Authority is of the opinion that the differences are such that no electricity supplier would be unduly disadvantaged in competing with other electricity suppliers, may make different provision for different electricity suppliers.]

(3)If [F5an electricity supplier] fails to meet a prescribed standard, he shall make to any person who is affected by the failure and is of a prescribed description such compensation as may be determined by or under the regulations.

(4)The making of compensation under this section in respect of any failure by [F5an electricity supplier] to meet a prescribed standard shall not prejudice any other remedy which may be available in respect of the act or omission which constituted that failure.


Are we going slightly off topic here? As payment was made by endorsement the gas Co would not have reason to seek install of meters, this is more about getting in PAYG meters to pay a non existant debt? As I said in a previous post about them all being liars & wanting payment over & over?

LionsShare wrote:

Tiggy wrote:

LionsShare wrote:hi toolapcblack ,

agree they should not be doing any of this under H&S but as we all know by now they are all liars & want nothing other than a false entity - currency. If they do physically get those meters in you can find UK wide registered but NOT suppliers to install new meters. Rip out those PAYG meters & install new analog meters - done!

They're NOT applying to change the meter on safety grounds, that's Section 1 of the Act, they've applied under Section 2, so as Assassin says a gas certificate would have no value.

hi tiggy,

Correct if I am wrong but are they not trying to gain entry under the guise of H&S? The actual change of the meter is something else?

Have I said explicitly they are trying to change the meters under H&S? Or have I missed something?

No Lionshare, they've quoted Section 2 of the 1954 Rights of Entry Act in their Notice. Section 1 deals with entry under safety aspects, this is Section 2, absolutely nothing to do with safety !!

Warrant to authorise entry.

(1)Where it is shown to the satisfaction of a justice of the peace, on sworn information in writing,—

[F1(a)that admission to premises specified in the information is reasonably required by a gas operator or an electricity operator or by an employee of a gas operator or an electricity operator;]

(b)that [F2the operator or [F3any employee of the operator]], as the case may be, would, apart from the preceding section, be entitled for that purpose to exercise in respect of the premises a right of entry to which this Act applies; and

(c)that the requirements (if any) of the relevant enactment have been complied with,then subject to the provisions of this section the justice may by warrant under his hand authorise [F4the operator or [F3any employee of the operator]], as the case may be, to enter the premises, if need be by force.

(2)If, in a case to which the preceding subsection applies, the relevant enactment does not require notice of an intended entry to be given to the occupier of the premises, the justice shall not grant a warrant under this section in respect of the right of entry in question unless he is satisfied—
(a)that admission to the premises for the purpose specified in the information was sought by a person lawfully requiring entry in the exercise of that right, and was so sought after not less than twenty-four hours’ notice of the intended entry had been given to the occupier; or
(b)that admission to the premises for that purpose was sought in a case of emergency and was refused by or on behalf of the occupier; or
(c)that the premises are unoccupied; or
(d)that an application for admission to the premises would defeat the object of the entry.
[F5(3)Where paragraph (a) of subsection (2) above applies—
(a)section 46 of the Gas Act 1986 (if entry is required for the purposes of a [F6gas operator]); or
(b)section 109 of the Electricity Act 1989 (if entry is required for the purposes of [F7an electricity operator]),shall apply to the service of the notice required by that paragraph.]
[F8(4)Every warrant granted under this section shall continue in force until—
(a)the time when the purpose for which the entry is required is satisfied; or
(b)the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day on which the warrant was granted, whichever is the earlier.]

(5)Any person who, in the exercise of a right of entry under the authority of a warrant granted under this section, enters any premises which are unoccupied, or premises of which the occupier is temporarily absent, shall leave the premises as effectually secured against trespassers as he found them.

(6)Where a warrant is granted under this section in respect of a right of entry, then for the purposes of any enactment whereby—
(a)an obligation is imposed to make good damage, or to pay compensation, or to take any other step, in consequence of the exercise of the right of entry, or
(b)a penalty is imposed for obstructing the exercise of that right,any entry effected, or sought to be effected, under the authority of the warrant shall be treated as an entry effected, or sought to be effected, in the exercise of that right of entry.

(7)This section shall, in its application to Scotland, have effect as if for any reference to a justice of the peace there were substituted a reference to the sheriff and to a magistrate or justice of the peace having jurisdiction in the place where the premises entry to which is sought are situated.

Hi Tiggy,

after reading this it would appear the right to enter could be... well all most anything reasonable? even fitting SMART meters?

is this gas safety cert a waste of time then?

think I will have to review again those yt vids on pay by endorsement! this does make things difficult!

Hi guys

LionsShare - no, i think you are right.....

Sec 2 might not be about safety, but it IS subject to sec 1 !


i'm gonna read this thread again to see how sec 39 came into it, then i'm gonna try and break it down. Maybe Tiggy is right, but i'm nowhere near convinced of that yet (with greatest of respect Tiggy).

Cheers!

OK my hypothersis:

sect2 is related to 1 - sort of:

if I remember from the yt vids i mention above then searching the 54 act what the question should be what do they have the right to enter for?

it could be to re-route a pipe for some purpose or change a fitting because of ? - nothing to do with H&S, OR escape of GAS! bingo there is the link to where H&S comes in & that's why you have the gas safety cert NOT due to any preconceived H&S issue, its to say here is the proof the supply is SAFE.

If under section 2 they stated we the gas want entry to watch TV at said building because we have the right to "ENTER" under that section then the judge should chuck it out, but who knows may be they would grant entry to watch TV!

If they are applying to change a meter then they are applying for a warrant to change a meter, if you do not allow them access then the warrant will include a condition or warrant of entry using reasonable means.

They will use the section on gaining entry to gain entry, then use the section on changing the meter to change the meter.

At one time they used to simply apply for a warrant of entry and gain entry, once the warrant was executed and they gained entry, anything they did after that was unlawful and you could simply throw them out using reasonable force as the warrant of entry was fulfilled, but things change and they apply measures to try to thwart people's attempts to stop them.