Re: Energy corps

by flyingfish Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:31 pm

LionsShare wrote:Don't forget 'FLYING FISH WATER LTD' coming soon.

I'm genuinely looking forward to that. A problem with some of the let's call them advanced methods is that often although people are advised, we don't hear back how they got on. A real case study will be helpful.

by brownowl Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:37 pm

flyingfish wrote:
brownowl wrote:Thanks, what part of the Electricity Act says that? What would you advise - to call up and pay them?
Schedule 6.

2(1)Where a customer has not, within the requisite period, [F2made all the relevant payments], the supplier may—
(a) install a pre-payment meter on the premises; or
(b) disconnect the premises,
and the supplier may recover any expenses incurred in so doing from the customer.

As far as advice goes, all we can do is make suggestions and provide background information so your decisions are made with your eyes open. Personally my electricity bills are paid as they fall due, but I have the luxury of sufficient cash to do that. So in my case I'd rather do that then enter into a pitched battle. Others, including some on here, seem to be happy with a lot of unpaid debt and are happy living effectively under siege.

Another background question, do you have assets for example equity in your house whether or not it's mortgaged? That's another issue, what do you stand to lose.

Yes, the house is mortgaged. It has been fun dodging them for some time, and I have put the money aside and they have grossly overestimated the bills. I worry that many in the "change your meter" crowd have paid out for the change and then found themselves in the same situation as I am now and have not put money aside.

I read schedule 6 of the Electricity Act and it directly contradicts the The Electricity (Prepayment Meter) Regulations 2006, schedule 3 and 4?

by flyingfish Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:05 pm

brownowl wrote:I worry that many in the "change your meter" crowd have paid out for the change and then found themselves in the same situation as I am now

The example I saw on that Telegram group was worse off, he's paid them a couple of hundred to change the meter without prior permission from the supplier as required by law. The supplier got a court order and warrant to make forcible entry and fit a prepay meter, the costs of which is all added to his bill. The group is so blind to reality that the best advice was for him to splash out yet another couple of hundred on another unauthorised meter. Given the nature of those groups I don't expect the final outcome to be published.

brownowl wrote:I read schedule 6 of the Electricity Act and it directly contradicts the The Electricity (Prepayment Meter) Regulations 2006, schedule 3 and 4?

It appears that way, however the way I read it Schedule allows two options, prepay meter or disconnection. If the customer refuses the prepay meter then the supplier still has the option of disconnection. I am not actually sure on the legal basis for example like I mentioned above, it may be that he didn't engage with the supplier and therefore was technically not refusing the prepayment meter. Or it may be that their case arose directly from the unauthorised meter change.

As for those "electricity is free" videos, I seriously question the motives of anyone who states this without making the slightest effort to find out how the industry works. I accept "electricity should be free" as an opinion or an aspiration, but unfortunately it is not the case at the moment.

by **LionsShare** Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:14 pm

brownowl all I can say is do what is best for you. I do not give advice as some imply here (fish out of water) what I state is based on my experience & research & that of others.

my quote above about base ball bat 'n all is true, seeing the results is where the experience comes in.

Please get the idea of a 'deemed' contract, do I or anyone have the right to tell you what to do?

as per
https://goodf.forumotion.com/t5800-fiduciary-trusts-agreement

there is a vid link in there where it starts roughly 8 mins in & watch the next 5 or so until they stop talking about uitilities.

Obviously some really are a fish out of water, even though to a point agree the £ is FIAT currency & in turn is worthless where exactly is the debt? How do you pay a debt with a debt? Or pay for anything in a debt driven economy?

does endorsement or A4V work, well TBH its not far off the same thing but if you specifically go for A4V & end up in court you may be asked what are you accepting for value? if you don't know its trousers down cheeks apart & you lose.

Please research A4V BEFORE trying it, I have actually used wording 'accepting for value' (yes using full on A4V) & did it work? No court no anything to speak of except they tried to switch tactics (long story I don't want to bore you) & ignored it - carried on here's a bill pay it or else!

These companies are just billing companies that's all including c'tax - here's a bill pay it or else.

by **LionsShare** Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:21 pm

a change of Notarised status may change things?

by brownowl Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:33 pm

LionsShare wrote:brownowl all I can say is do what is best for you. I do not give advice as some imply here (fish out of water) what I state is based on my experience & research & that of others.

my quote above about base ball bat 'n all is true, seeing the results is where the experience comes in.

Please get the idea of a 'deemed' contract, do I or anyone have the right to tell you what to do?

as per
https://goodf.forumotion.com/t5800-fiduciary-trusts-agreement

there is a vid link in there where it starts roughly 8 mins in & watch the next 5 or so until they stop talking about uitilities.

Obviously some really are a fish out of water, even though to a point agree the £ is FIAT currency & in turn is worthless where exactly is the debt? How do you pay a debt with a debt? Or pay for anything in a debt driven economy?

does endorsement or A4V work, well TBH its not far off the same thing but if you specifically go for A4V & end up in court you may be asked what are you accepting for value? if you don't know its trousers down cheeks apart & you lose.

Please research A4V BEFORE trying it, I have actually used wording 'accepting for value' (yes using full on A4V) & did it work? No court no anything to speak of except they tried to switch tactics (long story I don't want to bore you) & ignored it - carried on here's a bill pay it or else!

These companies are just billing companies that's all including c'tax - here's a bill pay it or else.

Your knowledge far surpasses mine and so I think I would research it more before trying it. I tend to stay away from YouTube videos as they are made by any 'truther' these days. I might look at the YAYC webinar on it.

Are you saying you have managed to evade the billing agents?

by **LionsShare** Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:34 pm

flyingfish wrote:As for those "electricity is free" videos, I seriously question the motives of anyone who states this without making the slightest effort to find out how the industry works.

Honestly who cares? I am sent a 'method' which should clear the alleged debt?

Its like being asked 'how would you prove the antecedent debt upon that which you rely?' When I get say a fiver in my hand, do I think 'mmm must prove the antecedent debt on that fiver?' No do I F*K, I spend it or as I have a security interest in a financial instrument I'll this time give it away, who cares?

by **LionsShare** Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:35 pm

brownowl wrote:Are you saying you have managed to evade the billing agents?

No they carry on.

by flyingfish Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:39 pm

I think we should try to keep the terminology correct for the UK. Suppliers themselves not "agents", although in some cases they may employ a DCA as their agent. The actual Supplier pays producers and is paid by users, they're not acting as an agent for anyone. I think that term might be an import from the US. There's also the term "energy broker" floating around, and they are not "brokers" either.

by brownowl Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:40 pm

LionsShare wrote:
brownowl wrote:Are you saying you have managed to evade the billing agents?
No they carry on.

How have you avoided the prepay meters?

by brownowl Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:43 pm

flyingfish wrote:I think we should try to keep the terminology correct for the UK. Suppliers themselves not "agents", although in some cases they may employ a DCA as their agent. The actual Supplier pays producers and is paid by users, they're not acting as an agent for anyone. I think that term might be an import from the US. There's also the term "energy broker" floating around, and they are not "brokers" either.

Duly noted! Thanks. I am quite new to this.

by **LionsShare** Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:29 pm

brownowl wrote:
LionsShare wrote:
brownowl wrote:Are you saying you have managed to evade the billing agents?
No they carry on.

How have you avoided the prepay meters?

so far but for how long?

by **daveiron** Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:57 pm

It still does not answer the question; What right does the 'producer'
(a corporation) have to take the God given resources from Man ?

by brownowl Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:40 pm

daveiron wrote:It still does not answer the question; What right does the 'producer'
(a corporation) have to take the God given resources from Man ?

Have you managed to hold the energy supplier to account?

by **daveiron** Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:55 pm

Not tried it as my energy bills are low anyway.
However its one question that could be put in a NoCA ,it would be interesting
to see how they could answer that.

by **urchinatheart** Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:46 am

Are the claims that a debt is owed addressed to (wo)men or persons ?
Man is the only being with the energy to work and earn 'money' to 'pay'
or even 'use' electricity. How can we men separate what should never have been joined and come forth to exercise our rights to use all we need ?
Can changing our status help ?

by **LionsShare** Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:26 am

status change just may be the way to go? I'm now starting to look into it.

urchin I agree with you with your statement above, I don't know what else to say?

by **LionsShare** Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:18 pm

When considering to 'pay' 'supplier' for gas & leccy take time to think what is it I am doing?

Wherever you live in the UK try to find your DNO (distribution network operator), try to contact them ask questions if you want? Such as:
1. Can I give you my meter readings & you charge me accordingly? If not why?
2. Do you transmit the gas + leccy free to the termination point before each respective meter?
3. Are you banned from charging by law?

The ideal answers are No, Yes, Yes respectively. Remember answers you get will vary.

From the above you will perhaps see a pattern?

Although FF did comment to the effect 'suppliers' are not energy brokers how are they acting per-se? If you know what a broker is & does, the broker does not provide the end product & in this case as the 'suppliers' offer a range of prices then what's going on? Possibly acting like a broker?

May be 'suppliers' 'buy' form the DNO? May be from the producers? May be from the energy markets? If you go to market & buy food stuffs, potatoes, carrots etc you can get hold of the respective....... Can these 'suppliers' get hold of gas + leccy & feel it? No they can't. So is it possible they are simply buying debt (speculating) from the energy markets (may be similar to a DP)? If so are we paying for that debt or actual supply of energy?

These I think are all valid questions that need proper answers & thorough investigation. Perhaps you the reader would endevour to do such a task?

To help with answers to the 3 questons above read the narrative in red in the image in this post
https://goodf.forumotion.com/t5779-gas-electric-and-water-are-free#39456

notice in the last paragraph - agree a contract. Says who?

by flyingfish Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:44 pm

I think I've mentioned quite a few times that Suppliers buy from Producers (Generators in the case of electricity). Not from the grid or from the DNO. You'll find as much detail as you can eat in these links. I particularly recommend the last two, and other pages on that same site ..
https://www.myutilitygenius.co.uk/guide/dummies/energy-supply-explained/
https://www.nationalgrideso.com/who-we-are/markets/electricity-markets-explained
https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/energy-industry/the-energy-market.html
https://www.forbes.com/uk/advisor/energy/how-the-uk-energy-market-works/

https://www.elexon.co.uk/about/trading-electricty-market/
https://www.elexon.co.uk/about/

I picked up on the term "broker" because I think this is an accidental import from US where they have "Energy Brokers" which are not the same as our Suppliers. In the UK a broker is someone who facilitates a contract between parties, but is not party to the contract themselves.

by **LionsShare** Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:58 pm

thanks to FF something well pointed out.

After reading:
https://www.elexon.co.uk/about/trading-electricty-market/

'Customers to choose the supplier of their choice' are we customers or are they our agents? I have discussed this may times, here for example:
https://goodf.forumotion.com/t5800-fiduciary-trusts-agreement#39531

also:
https://www.myutilitygenius.co.uk/guide/dummies/energy-supply-explained/

British energy suppliers have operated in a liberalised and competitive market since the 1990s

there's that word 'market'. Etymology needs close scrutiny. 'Market' does that mean speculation on the stock market?

Remember if they can chose which producer to purchase from they can switch so where does the 'trading' take place & any info generated must go & from somewhere? Is it the stock exchange? Like buying other commodities?

by flyingfish Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:17 pm

LionsShare wrote:'Customers to choose the supplier of their choice' are we customers or are they our agents?

Your supplier is not your agent.

LionsShare wrote:'.. where does the 'trading' take place & any info generated must go & from somewhere? Is it the stock exchange?

The Balancing and Settlement Code, as covered in those Elexon links. They operate the BSC.

by **LionsShare** Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:08 am

flyingfish wrote:
LionsShare wrote:'Customers to choose the supplier of their choice' are we customers or are they our agents?
Your supplier is not your agent..

Well all I can say from experience its the supply & non supply of evidence that's the proof it works. The proof; the paperwork evidenced is the subject of performance - the proof of a Trust so its a Fiduciary relationship. The proof of lack of proof; when asked to provide, there actually is a 'debt' nothing comes back.

I did 1x gas + leccy years back on another house to get the experience. I had 2x Final Bills, thought how many horses generally come last in a race? - 1 surely? I had 2 bills covering the same period dates (start & finish) so endorsed 1, sent the other back without endorsement & that went to a DP, have seen the DP off without giving a penny to anyone or thing.

Also IMO as there is evidence of NO sending of court paperwork to give a chance to challenge warrant, NO sending of paperwork to give 7 days notice they are coming & some even using violence to force fit the meters its proof enough the shown desparation to make a 'profit' - demanding monies with menaces which At Law is a crime here in the UK. The only thing to say it really is all FREE.

What you get shown is an electronic 'warrant' its suppose to be on paper so you have a copy. Its all fraud a crime of Uttering, see sect 6 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1913/27/body/enacted

The whole endorsement thing is not for everyone, probably the best way to go is build a case & make a claim. Some have anecdotally stated they have managed to acheive it without producing evidence they actually won.

Its even made me feel sick & ill at the relentless drive for 'profit' & people actually kill over these bits of paper with ink on thinking they actually have some sort of 'value' to make them rich. A complete delusion?

by **LionsShare** Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:22 pm

slowly we are losing what we are entitled to.

revenue came off joint giro 31/12/2017, utils 31/12/2018, if you change 'supplier' after 31/12/2018 then what you get is a bank giro credit with what I call 'added value'. The same bits are there but without 'transcash'. Some have different wording, for the best example please for what we should get: https://goodf.forumotion.com/t5648-most-complete-bank-giro-credit

when the CBDC comes in we are going to lose everything because there will be a 'new' payment system but we are still the creditors just more enslaved than now.

The main reason we are getting hammered for this crap is we have not corrected status & told all its the legal fiction that's the debtor, we are the creditors & they know this just being stubborn b'stards

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