Re: RobWay/Cohen - advice please?

by **Mrblue2015** Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:17 am

waylander62 wrote: I read you said this defaulted back in 2013 !! that is 7 years ago !!

Music box then went on to say 2017, so I’m confused too... (see post by Musicbox34 on Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:31 am)

Also agreed with waylander, reply to the Letter of Claim again, this time starting off by saying:

This is now the SECOND time I have requested the documents required to substantiate your client’s claim, the first attempt being <enter date of our first attempt> and you have now therefore taken at least <enter the number of> months to respond IN FULL and as required of you under the Post Direction Pre Action Conduct and Protocols. Should this ever get to court, this letter and my previous letter shall be brought to the attention of the judge as evidence of your failing and your wasting of my time and energy, which should be spent with my family in the current pandemic. I shall also report you to the Solicitors Regulation Authority for your actions which I now see as continued harassment given that you are repeating your continued and fruitless efforts.

by waylander62 Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:07 am

just something to add,

you have received terms and conditions from robinson way

you have received terms and conditions in your SAR from the OC

they should therefore be identical in every way are they ?

also what was the date of the assignment ? as this would be around the date of the last payment made by you.

by **Mrblue2015** Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:45 pm

On a slightly different but not unrelated note, I am surprised that you (Musicbox) received Ts & Cs in your SAR to the OC. I was never able to obtain those in my SAR.

In fact, the OC stated: "Terms and conditions are not considered personal information". However, the good news is, in my case, the debt purchaser was unable to produce Ts & Cs (obviously) haha!

The OC also stated: "We don't hold copies of Default Notices outside of those included in our response to your Subject Access Request"

My SAR included NO Default Notices whatsoever... However, luckily for me, I kept the ORIGNAL Default Notices Wink

And on that note, it is always best you keep ALL correspondence from your bank, loan or credit card provider etc. You never know when it might come in handy...!

by Musicbox34 Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:27 am

Thanks Waylander for the info. I'll send all the same stuff I sent last time along with a letter pointing out I did the exact same last year!
Also - do I need to send the £1 with the info request again?

I made a mistake earlier in the thread - sorry for the confusion. The default date was 2017 (not 2013).

MrBlue - thanks for the advice. I didn't receive T&Cs in the SAR related to the disputed account. All they sent me for that were some printouts marked "copy statements". The T&Cs I was sent were from Robinson Way (on behalf of Hoist - the alleged debt purchasers) and those had been provided to them by the OC according to a letter to Robinson Way from the OC, which they included. There weren't any default notices or any other letters etc. in the SAR info. Nothing about an original agreement for that account either.

by **Mrblue2015** Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:19 am

Then if that's the case (so little and insignificant information from the debt purchaser, Hoist) you have little to concern your self with... BUT, please do still respond to Waylander's questions.

by **Mrblue2015** Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:31 am

Here follows how to respond to a Letter of Claim.

You must reply within 14 days from the date shown in the Letter of Claim.

You must follow ALL 3 steps:

1. Filling out the form:
From the form, tick the box that days you DISPUTE the debt. You should also have a box that says allows you to enter a reason for disputing the debt. In this box say the following in bold:

As per the Practice Direction Pre-Action Conduct and Protocols, please find enclosed two letters:
a) A formal demand for you to supply the Consumer Credit Agreement plus associated Terms and Conditions in relation to the alleged debt, along with the £1 statutory fee (enclosed).
b) A formal demand requiring you to provide additional evidence in relation to the alleged debt.

(Do NOT fill in any income and expenditure form if they supply one, feel free to rip that up, wipe your backside with it or whatever, your finances are none of their business!)

2. Letters a) and b) - the 'enclosed letters'
For letter a) write a headed etc letter and state the following in bold:

This is an official demand for a true copy of the Consumer Credit Agreement plus the associated terms and conditions in relation to the alleged debt, including the statutory £1 fee (please find enclosed), to be provided to me within SEVEN days of the post marked date of this letter.

(Also enclose a postal order for £1 and on that postal order, ensure you write in bold: payment for Consumer Credit Agreement request only.)

For Letter b) write a headed etc letter and state the following in bold:

This an official demand requiring you to supply me with true, legible copies of ALL of the following documents in order for your client to evidence their claim to the alleged debt and to be provided to me within FORTY days of the post marked date of this letter: -

a) Any Default Notice served
b) Any Notice of Assignment served
c) Any Statements of account showing how exactly the alleged sums have become due
d) The Termination Notice
e) The Sale Agreement / Deed of Assignment evidencing their clients title to bring a claim

OR you can use the template found here for Letter b) : https://goodf.forumotion.com/t41-the-3-letters-process and scroll down to the section 'If things do go to court', starting from where the template says SENT BY RECORDED DELIVERY.

3. Photocopy all of the above (i.e. the form, your enclosed letters AND the postal order) for your own records PRIOR to sending an A4 envelope containing all of the original documents and postal order via Royal Mail Signed For delivery (better still, using their tracked service) ensuring the envelope gets to the solicitor BEFORE the 14 day deadline. I recommend you send off your envelope with one week to go at the very latest (don't risk leaving it too late!)

If you do not do the above, they will likely issue a claim and then it gets harder (but not impossible) to fight...

by waylander62 Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:39 am

this is why we send a SAR

so..... results of your SAR for this account

i) no copy of any original agreement
ii) no terms and conditions
iii) no default notice
iv) no assignment letter
v) no proper copy statements

Shocked

can you confirm all or some of this please

by Musicbox34 Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:46 am

Thanks MrBlue. I'll do the letters and form to send off tomorrow.

Waylander - as for what I received in the SAR:
i) There is no copy of any original agreement
ii) There are no separate terms and conditions (there is a bit of info on the copy statements, but it doesn't say T&Cs anywhere)
iii) There is no default notice
iv) There is no assignment letter
v) There are copy statements for the disputed account that go back 10 years. Before that the account probably had some of the different account numbers that they have sent statements for, but I don't know which ones.

All the documents they sent for the SAR are digital versions. There would be no digital version for the original credit agreement and original T&Cs that were attached as they would be 30 years old. I've received copies of the credit agreement from Robinson Way and that is a scan/photocopy of a paper form. Looks like an application form, but it says Credit Agreement at the top. I didn't get a copy of this with the SAR though.

by **Mrblue2015** Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:24 am

Just to be 100% clear Musicbox - the SAR did come from the Original Creditor (OC) yes?

by waylander62 Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:42 am

musicbox

was this always a barclaycard ? or did it start off as a monument or providian card ?

so... rob way have supplied a copy of an 'agreement' with terms and conditions and also provided a letter from the original creditor stating that these have come from the oc ???

yet you receive none of these in your SAR ?

by Musicbox34 Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:45 pm

MrBlue - yes, the SAR was from the OC.

Waylander - it's always been a Barclaycard.
Rob Way have provided a copy of the original agreement & what they say are the original T&Cs. The letter from the OC that they copied to me says that these are a copy of the "Historic and Varied Terms and Conditions" related to the account and these are a photocopy/scan like the agreement, rather than a printout. They also sent some of the most recent copy statements.
The only thing I can find anywhere in the hundreds of sheets sent by the OC for the SAR that are related to this account are the copy statements. There's no agreement or t&cs for this account in the SAR and the copy statements only go back about 10 years.

With the other stuff they included there are several sheets of "Data Protection Act Reporting" with all the details for a different account number (that one was previously Egg so I know it doesn't relate to this disputed account). There's also a sheet marked "Application Data" with no account number on it which is dated 10 years ago and says "Application Method: Internet", so that's definitely not this disputed account either as the disputed account is from well before internet applications were around. All the rest of the sheets are copy statements for various different accounts.

It mentions on the covering letter with the SAR that the information they provided "does not cover all manual records, only records held in highly structured manual files. This is particularly important to consider if the request relates to older accounts." So as this is definitely an older account I guess anything else is manual records that they've not provided.

by waylander62 Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:05 pm

write straight back to the OC and point out that they have ONLY provided some recent statements in respect of account number xxxxxx ( or whatever they have provided )

this does not fulfil their obligations in respect of your SAR and you require all documents held, if their are no further documents held for this account then please let you know this to be the case, in writing.

get that straight off to them ( if their SAR letter to you gives you an e mail address then use it to speed up the process )

lets find out what is going on.

by **Mrblue2015** Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:44 pm

Agreed with Waylander62. Seems v strange that the OC has supplied so little in response to your SAR.

by Musicbox34 Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:43 am

I'll write to the OC again to see if they will supply any more info.

They didn't give a contact email address. The header postal address on the covering letter they sent with the SAR even says "Town, County, Postcode". Don't think they want any communication! Obviously the address I used last time worked though so I'll use that one again.

As always - thanks so much for the help!

by Musicbox34 Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:33 am

Update on this:

This is their reply to my response to their Letter of Claim (this is the second time they've sent a Letter of Claim and the second time I've replied with the form and letters).

I've received some documents from Hoist (the debt purchasers), which is a bit unusual as everything usually comes from Robinson Way (their agents - same address).
They've sent me:
-the same small group of recent copy statements as they sent last time (one of the copy statements says the account has been suspended)
-the same small list of recent transactions
-the same set of "Historic and Varied Terms and conditions" with the same copy of the covering letter -from Barclaycard (OC) saying that these are the docs Hoist has asked for
-no copy of the application/agreement this time (they have sent this previously)
-no default letter (they have never provided a copy of this)
-no notice of assignment (they have never provided a copy of this)
-a customer financial statement to fill in and make an offer to pay

Their covering letter says they have sent everything I've asked for and will put the account on hold for 30 days while they wait for my reply. After that they may pass the account to their client's solicitors (um... the letter says it's from the client themselves, not their agent - they seem confused about who they are!) Also they already sent a letter of claim - twice now!

So I guess I just wait now and see what comes next after the 30 days is up? Maybe a third Letter of Claim?

Also - I noticed that around the time they sent the second Letter of Claim at the beginning of December the default for this disappeared from my credit report. Is that normal when they're still chasing it?

Thanks as always for your help and advice with all this!

by **Mrblue2015** Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:10 am

Musicbox34 wrote:Update on this:

This is their reply to my response to their Letter of Claim (this is the second time they've sent a Letter of Claim and the second time I've replied with the form and letters).

This in itself is a breach of the Practice Direction Pre-Action Conduct and Protocols, and hopefully at some point we can hold them to account in their failing. In fact, make a note of that to include in your next letter as and when we get to that!

Typical Debt Purchaser (DPs) / Debt Collection Agent (DCAs) - couldn't manage the proverbial in a brewery i.e. admin all over the place etc! That's good for you though Wink

Their letter strikes of desperation IMO.

And regarding the same address? Robinson (jam haha ) way will most likely be an IN-HOUSE DCA working on behalf of the DP i.e. same company! A lot of DPs also use in-house solicitors e.g. Arrow Global use Drydensfairfax 'Solicitors' who are part of the same company - i.e. Drydens are a glorified IN-HOUSE DCA...

"-no copy of the application/agreement this time" (they have sent this previously)" - HAHA
"-no default letter (they have never provided a copy of this)" - HAHA
"-no notice of assignment (they have never provided a copy of this)" - HAHA
So, good luck with that...

"Their covering letter says they have sent everything I've asked for" - er, no, a child can see you haven't! haha. Again, the proverbial...

"default for this disappeared from my credit report." - great news! As you have never been to court for this (I don't think you have?) then this means the alleged debt is NO LONGER LEGALLY ENFORCEABLE and so they CAN'T take you to court. So get evidence of this e.g. a copy of your report ASAP.

Hopefully Waylander62 will see my post and help craft a better letter than I could for your to send to them and put this matter to rest once and for all based on the alleged debt now being statue barred!

by waylander62 Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:27 am

i saw about 6 posts ago that musicbox said the default date for this was 2017

with no default notice available it is difficult, however the copy statements in your SAR should show when the last payment was made.

by waylander62 Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:45 am

anyway

i would send a short simple reply

dear idiots

i have received your letter dated xxxx the contents which have been noted. Your letter states that you have provided all of the documents i requested and have the right to see. This is quite clearly not the case and i require you to take a look at what i requested and what you have actually provide.

For the avoidance of doubt i require you to provide the documents to evidence your claim. I have received 2 letters before claim now approximately a year apart, i have responded as per the pre action protocol and have remained in honour however on both occasions you have not provided the documentation requested.

Please take a proper look at my request and the evidence you have provided, also note the evidence you have failed to provide, i require you to fulfil your obligations in this matter as the Law requires.

i look forward to hearing from you.

thats what i would send or very similar.

by **Mrblue2015** Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:27 am

waylander62 wrote:i saw about 6 posts ago that musicbox said the default date for this was 2017.

100% agreed Waylander62. But since then, musicbox said the account no longer appears in his credit report. So that's thrown me too! haha

Musicbox: are you 100% sure of that facts here???

by **Mrblue2015** Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:31 am

(Brilliant letter BTW Waylander62)

by Musicbox34 Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:28 am

Waylander - thanks for the draft letter. I'll send that to them and see what they do next...

MrBlue - About the credit report - I get emails about once a month from the credit reference agencies as I had paid accounts with them for a short time to get my full credit reports. At the beginning of Dec I had emails from them saying my credit status has changed to "excellent" instead of "poor" Shocked

I thought this was pretty weird so I had a look at the free reports they have. They don't show much detail, but they do show the defaults. All that's on there now is the OC's original default for this account that is marked as "settled" since they sold it. The default from Hoist for this account (2017) isn't showing up there at all. It used to be right there under the OC's one. I'll get a paid version of the report to make sure it's definitely not still there, but it looks like it's been removed for some reason. It's definitely not statute barred, so I was surprised to see it's not there any more. It was always on the free report version before.
EDIT - just ordered and checked my credit reports. Default from Hoist for this account has vanished. Weird.....

I also wrote again to the OC about the SAR info they sent as advised by Waylander asking if they had any more info on that account. No reply so far.

by **Mrblue2015** Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:24 am

Thanks for the additional clarity, very weird indeed... Which is why I can be forgiven for saying it was statute barred (account falls off of your report / score swings hugely from poor to excellent - which is what happens when an account becomes statute barred)!

Anyway... I've had another through look through ALL of your posts right from the very beginning (time consuming haha) and you had to make a lot of corrections to the info you provided us with in places. But I now think I know what's happened OVERALL and why we are still getting confused.

The OC (Barclaycard) credit card account WOULD have been statute barred by now (in your Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:56 am post you said "Rob Way haven't sent a copy of the Default Notice. I don't have one with my papers for this, but it was 2014".

BUT! The account is NOT statute barred because in that same post, you continue to say that you started making payments to Barclaycard from 2014 to 2016. THIS is how you ended up with a 2016/2017 default notice (in your Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:27 am post you confirm it to be 2017).

As such, the 'Statute Barred' clock restarted from then i.e. when you stopped making payments i.e. 2016/2017. And so Statute Barred will now not happen until most likely 2023.

And as to why your credit report is missing the OC's account (which gives the impression that Statute Barred has happened!) that's because when Barclaycard (the OC) FIRST updated the credit file, it was with the FIRST default Notice i.e. for 2014 And somehow the 'revised' default notice i.e. for 2017 has also dropped off too (who knows why...)

Maybe the likes of us (me, Waylander62 etc) can think about what that means / IF it can really help you (not sure for now) but in the meantime, write the letter Waylander62 suggested in response to their latest letter.

(Now I can get a coffee at last before I start work! haha)

by waylander62 Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:01 am

you can't rely on credit reference agencies reports for much at all really

i would forget statute barred because you were paying them after the initial default notice.

just write to them and see what happens next.

by **Mrblue2015** Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:02 am

Agreed to all of Waylander62's points.

Keep calm and carry on (with the process) as they say Smile

by Musicbox34 Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:08 pm

Yeah - I know the credit report doesn't really mean much. I just thought it was weird that the Hoist default disappeared when it's not statute barred and they're started chasing me again for it. The original default from Barclaycard for this same account is still on the report, but it's marked as settled so it doesn't count against my score. Just seems really strange that the "live" Hoist default got removed for some reason.

MrBlue - sorry you had to go back and read all my posts - that's dedicated! Smile

Sometimes I tried to keep the story short and ended up making it confused instead - and I didn't always have the info to hand so I made some mistakes with what I wrote. And all the advice I've had here has been massively helpful even when I didn't explain things well. Really can't thank you guys enough for what you do here.

So I'll send off that letter to them and wait for their next installment...

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