Liability Order in Respect of Council Tax....

Hi Guys,

I need a little help with this, only received it a couple of days ago, though the Order is dated a few days earlier..!

Where do I go from here as I gather it is a kangaroo court scenario where the court is hired out to the Council in question and that on most occasions there isn't even a ruling Judge present.?

You could ask a few awkward questions :

Where is the Liability Order,I require a certified copy not a letter telling me you have one.
Ask is the order signed by a named individual ?
Is CT payable on a domestic dwelling?

Insist all replies are signed individual who takes liability for there contents.

My advice would be on this occasion to pay it ,then do a lot research for next year ,because they will lie, deceive and use force against you .CT is probably the hardest one to fight & knowledge is power.

daveiron wrote:You could ask a few awkward questions :

Where is the Liability Order,I require a certified copy not a letter telling me you have one.
Ask is the order signed by a named individual ?
Is CT payable on a domestic dwelling?

Insist all replies are signed individual who takes liability for there contents.

My advice would be on this occasion to pay it ,then do a lot research for next year ,because they will lie, deceive and use force against you .CT is probably the hardest one to fight & knowledge is power.    

Thanks for your reply;

Well I'm privy to bailiff can & can't do's and force I can deal with as I'm no old lady, as they will get exactly what they deserve..!

You state: 'Ask is the order signed by a named individual', shouldn't this be from a Judge or similar person and should it be wet?

Also your point on 'Is CT payable on a domestic dwelling?', this one doesn't make sense to me as Council's have different band rates for different properties i.e. Domestic, Private, Commercial etc or am I missing something..?

NoSurender wrote:

Also your point on 'Is CT payable on a domestic dwelling?', this one doesn't make sense to me as Council's have different band rates for different properties i.e. Domestic, Private, Commercial etc or am I missing something..?

Hope this helps:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/14/section/3

extract;

(2)Subject to the following provisions of this section, a dwelling is any property which—

(b)is not for the time being shown or required to be shown in a local or a central non-domestic rating list in force at that time;

Sorry but this is why you need the research ,

See if you can get a name & signature on the order (i will be very surprised if you do)

If you beat the bailiffs ,the council can get you committed to prison .

research on CT and you will see its for non domestic dwellings.

I am the last person normally who would advocate paying it ,but you really need knowledge on this one .
I can only repeat that you need knowledge on this one ,and i would not be doing you any favors if i told you otherwise.

daveiron wrote:Sorry but this is why you need the research ,

See if you can get a name & signature on the order (i will be very surprised if you do)

If you beat the bailiffs ,the council can get you committed  to prison .

research on CT and you will see its for non domestic dwellings.

I am the last person normally who would advocate paying it ,but you really need knowledge on this one .
I can only repeat that you need knowledge on this one ,and i would not be doing you any favors if i told you otherwise.

Yeah I do do a lot of research so I'll get on this one and see what I can dig up, thanks..!

LionsShare wrote:

NoSurender wrote:

Also your point on 'Is CT payable on a domestic dwelling?', this one doesn't make sense to me as Council's have different band rates for different properties i.e. Domestic, Private, Commercial etc or am I missing something..?

Hope this helps:

legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/14/section/3

extract;

(2)Subject to the following provisions of this section, a dwelling is any property which—

(b)is not for the time being shown or required to be shown in a local or a central non-domestic rating list in force at that time;

Thanks for this...

daveiron wrote:
research on CT and you will see its for non domestic dwellings.

Well my flat is with a housing charity so would this be classed as domestic or non-domestic residence?
I have checked though can't seam to find anything relevant..!

I would check out your tenancy agreement as well, because most housing associations make it a condition of tenancy that you pay the Council Tax or it could count towards applying for an eviction.

Could you not ask them to prove in writing how the council tax act applies to you, what law (and make them quote it) enforces you to have to comply with it.

Firstly, on the subject of holding someone within the council liable, that's easy...the council's CEO is vicariously liable for wrong done by those who work under his direction, ie. all council staff.
If a council issues a liability order, this has not been issued by the court itself, but should at the very least be signed by a JP in wet ink with that person's full printed name beneath.
On goodf it was proven time and time again that courts DO NOT issue these orders, so technically the council is acting under the guise of the court, which is illegal according to the gov legislation, see elsewhere for the full law regarding this.
To my mind, if the council seek to put anyone in prison for none payment of CT, then they are not only breaching your human rights, but breaking the law too on this matter. The council has no power to put anyone in prison on their own count, threats of same are once again breaching that person's human right under this action, or threat of.
Your action if you want answers, is to seek out your council's CEO by name and tell him/her straight that you demand written answers, otherwise you will hold him/her liable for breaching your human rights and for the threats via coercion made upon you. Jinxer's response would a part of this road to go down upon.

Threats to suggest that by not paying this unlawful tax you will lose your home is once again breaching your human rights. Everyone should take the trouble to read up on their human rights and fight for them. The Gov's own human rights act only applies to those person's (corporate entities) who owe their allegiance to them and the crown.

Just to expand on a point you made ll, you are totally right about the 'vicariously liable' aspect but this is not a given.

There is always deniability. Vicariously liability stems from seniority/secondary but it can easily be got out of through 'passing the book'.

To push the legal point of vicariously liability then all that is required is a note to the senior party e.g.,

Dear Senior Blah,

I am writing to you to make you aware that I am in contact with 'insert minion'. With regards to the following matter (insert details, feelings etc etc).

Once they are fully aware of a situation they are fully vicarious liable within the law.

Hi Actinglikeabanker...

I agree with what you say and add that some times when confronted by gov agents who deny liability by not signing anything they send to, I was going to say US, but it's the all Capital Name, so not precisely us. I think that only with a suggestion of threatening certain things(lawful things)upon them by bluffing and counter bluffing, could hopefully lead to having something put right. Though I know quite a lot about Human Rights and know of a lot of case law regarding what happened to those breaching another's human rights, I still have a great deal to learn. I say that the buck stops here and that we must draw the line somewhere. I will not allow anyone to tread on me no matter what...

Hi NoSurender

......or all of the above? It's all good advice. At the end of the day it's commerce. In theory you could settle this with perhaps as few as two letters, though i have yet to see it tried. i've not even seen it suggested, but i don't see how they could negate it.

Cheers!

hi no surrender! Since you have added a few attachments your allowed space is near full , unfortunately as we are using a free hosting service we need to limit the amount of storage because the whole site only has a certain amount for free. You will have to manage  and reduce the file sizes of your attachments to fit more in. Its a pain i know :/
Always reduce the size of images to a minimum before uploading ,800x800 is big enough for a photo to be readable (i think) and u would be able to fit many for the space of one large photo.

daveiron wrote:Sorry but this is why you need the research ,

See if you can get a name & signature on the order (i will be very surprised if you do)

If you beat the bailiffs ,the council can get you committed  to prison .

research on CT and you will see its for non domestic dwellings.

I am the last person normally who would advocate paying it ,but you really need knowledge on this one .
I can only repeat that you need knowledge on this one ,and i would not be doing you any favors if i told you otherwise.

Dave

Council Tax is for not just for Non Domestic Dwellings it is for Dwellings that are used for other than "Living Purposes only".

Start at Section 3 of the 1992 LGFA and work back via the 1988 LGFA to the 1967 GRA .... they have no statutory authority to charge you Council Tax for a Dwelling "That is used for living purposes only".

So how on earth are Corporate Councils getting away with enforcing liability for this in Magistrates Courts ?

Well the clues are there, and the clue is not in the definition of a dwelling.

It appears their is entirely different law form at play operating under other presumptions, and yes you are deemed legally DEAD, effectively in terms of civil rights and a slave, which is why regardless of what you say or do they proceed as if you are not even their or can be heard.

I really think their using the identifier "Ward" to locate you on the corporate topography ought to be getting people using this forum to start doing proper research.

The procedures for issuing the liability orders as per statute are a matter of questionability, however this does not address the matter as to why they are able to charge you Council Tax for the right to access a dwelling "For living purposes only", if you had rights that could be substantively recognised by the court, Councils would not be able to get away with this Fraud.

It should be obvious by now, that you are not recognised as having rights that are substantive.

I don't think you could have said much more Ferry man. Research is imperative, especially learning from the legislations that they have implemented to denote these inherent burdens upon us. Something we can all do a little more of.

You've hit the nail on the head for the purposes within the acts as to why they are charging council tax, they also show us remedy, but thats not within the remit of this thread.

For the subject matter to develop, may I suggest extracting the term you used "ward"

Now if a county council is a ward, it therefore has a guardian. If our land/property is registered to the ward, the county, then the ward becomes a wardship and our land/property also becomes a ward to the guardian/s..... parens patriae, is it really just a doctrine for the persons???

Who owns your home..... If you take a real close look at your your documents no matter wether you are renting, still paying a loan (mortgage) for the land or "own" it, you are only a tenant, and a tenant in common that is. Socage was/is a form of feudal tenure, tax is a rent for using someone else's property, who is your landlord? who "owns" your land/property? because it sure aint any of us!


Wardship 3. Hist. The right of the feudal lord
to guardianship of a deceased tenant's minor heir until
the heir reached the age of majority.

guardianship of the estate. A guardianship in which
the guardian can make decisions only about matters
regarding the ward's assets and property.

A blind trust is a trust in which the trust beneficiaries have no knowledge of the holdings of the trust, and no right to intervene in their handling.

There are plenty of doctrines about the landlord and the tenant, they go way back, but centre on feudalism from many moons ago up to today. What tenancy do you have? and what tenancy do they have? who owns your land and property?

Notice that in a blind trust the beneficiary ONLY has no right to intervene in the handlings, if you don't think that a trust is being construed against you then you are miseducated.

ALL beneficiaries have a right to know what the res is and ALL beneficiaries have the right to discharge and appoint new trustees. You are not without any power, you need to be able to construe a relationship that you will be heard in.

Hi NoSurender

The reason they can charge you CT is because your home is registered as your 'business' address, and you have listed it as the place you accept 'service'.

The only way for anyone to beat CT is to view it as a stepping stone on the journey to 'realisation'.

Cheers!

No surrender, you are in the CT bracket for a charitable dwelling for living purposes if it's a for profit charity.

Lamani is right let it be a learning curve for now.....

Hi Waffle

Actually, i was suggesting the task of beating CT as PART of his own learning curve. But yes, it might be a long learning curve in which case a future year is more likely. Depends on his level of knowledge and how determined/desperate he is. That goes for most of us really, i suspect.

Cheers!

No surrender, I am sorry I am unable to offer you a quick fix, as I know there isn't one, myself and another have cracked how they council are getting away with this unlawful tax, which is also illegal by statute if you are not a commercial resident. (but they are still able to get around it) We are almost at the final stage of killing them off strategically speaking.

My advice to you is to hold them off as well as you can, until you have the correct knowledge, the correct knowledge is found in the Acts the council refer to, and accompanying citations, there is a method to unravelling this, and I am afraid a bit of reading on your part and time - this is necessary to properly comprehend the matter.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is leading you astray.

IF you wish to know how this is done, I am using PM only (there are very good reasons for this).

Ferry Man wrote:No surrender, I am sorry I am unable to offer you a quick fix, as I know there isn't one, myself and another have cracked how they council are getting away with this unlawful tax, which is also illegal by statute if you are not a commercial resident. (but they are still able to get around it) We are almost at the final stage of killing them off strategically speaking.

My advice to you is to hold them off as well as you can, until you have the correct knowledge, the correct knowledge is found in the Acts the council refer to, and accompanying citations, there is a method to unravelling this, and I am afraid a bit of reading on your part and time - this is necessary to properly comprehend the matter.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is leading you astray.  

IF you wish to know how this is done, I am using PM only (there are very good reasons for this).

Thanks Ferry Man and to everyone who's given advice here, its greatly appreciated..! Yes Ferry Man I will reply via PM with any update or advice I need on this current matter..!

Hi NoSurender

Er... might be a slight problem with that....

You might want to peruse the 'history of rates' thread on 'latest news'.

Cheers!