A History of Rates

Waffle wrote:The term "dwelling" is used for census stock purpose.

Census; early 17th cent. (denoting a poll tax): from Latin, applied to the registration of citizens and property in ancient Rome, usually for taxation, from censere ‘assess’. The current sense dates from the mid 18th cent.

What tenure do you have? Who owns your home? You are a tenant renting the property from who? Why are you paying "tax" rent.......

The councils keep a UPRN (unique property reference number) for every registered property in Britain. Does a UPRN sound very much like a UTRN (unique tax reference number). Legislation was enacted in 1990 that made it a legal requirement for every property to be registered. It was 1990 when poll tax was introduced and subsequently changed to council tax in 1993.

In feudal law there used to be socage, they abolished this and to compensate her Majesty for the loss of revenue they introduced excise tax!

What needed replacing in 1990 for the introduction of poll tax. Why does anyone even if they are the "outright" owner have either a freehold or leasehold tenure, tenancy. who actually owns the property because I suspect someone else has a higher tenure than you, but still a lesser tenure than the queen.

interesting a new angle.
Found this
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/definitions-of-general-housing-terms

Dwelling

For dwelling stock data, unless specifically stated, the definition used follows the Census’s definition applicable at that time. The Census’s definition has changed several times. For example, the 1991 Census defined a dwelling as structurally separate accommodation. This was determined primarily by considering the type of accommodation, as well as separate and shared access to multi-occupied properties. The 2001 Census defined dwellings as either containing a single household space or several household spaces sharing some facilities. For an explanation of how the dwelling count is derived from the 2011 Census, including the definitions of a dwelling and a household, please read the note, The 2011 Census dwelling count (available to download from Notes and definitions for stock data.

So hardly set in stone this Census definition of dwelling.

A ‘household’s accommodation’ (a household space) is defined as being in a shared dwelling if it has accommodation type ‘part of a converted or shared house’, not all the rooms (including bathroom and toilet, if any) are behind a door that only that household can use and there is at least one other such household space at the same address with which it can be combined to form the shared dwelling.

Bear in mind the supreme court judges said clearly there is no legal definition of dwelling or dwell so what sort of definition is this very intricate and ambiguous one?

If any of these conditions are not met, the household space forms an unshared dwelling. Therefore a dwelling can consist of one household space (an unshared dwelling) or two or more household spaces (a shared dwelling).

In recent years (since 2001) a dwelling is defined (in line with the 2001 Census definition) as a self-contained unit of accommodation. Self-containment is where all the rooms (including kitchen, bathroom and toilet) in a household’s accommodation are behind a single door which only that household can use. Non-self contained household spaces at the same address should be counted together as a single dwelling. Therefore a dwelling can consist of one self-contained household space or two or more non-self-contained household spaces at the same address.

Ancillary dwellings (eg former ‘granny annexes’) are included provided they are self-contained, pay separate council tax from the main residence, do not share access with the main residence (eg a shared hallway) and there are no conditional restrictions on occupancy.

Communal establishments, ie establishments providing managed residential accommodation, are not counted in overall housing supply statistics (however, all student accommodation, whether it consists of communal halls of residence or self-contained dwellings, and whether or not it is on campus, can be included towards the housing provision in local development plans). These cover university and college student, hospital staff accommodation, hostels/homes, hotels/holiday complexes, defence establishments (not married quarters) and prisons. However, purpose-built (separate) homes (eg self-contained flats clustered into units with 4 to 6 bedrooms for students) should be included. Each self-contained unit should be counted as a dwelling.

Non permanent (or ‘temporary’) dwellings are included if they are the occupant’s main residence and council tax is payable on them as a main residence. These include caravans, mobile homes, converted railway carriages and houseboats. Permanent traveller pitches should also be counted if they are, or likely to become, the occupants’ main residence.

In all stock figures, vacant dwellings and second homes are included.

The bit waffle is highlighting?

House building statistics collect data on permanent dwellings only ie dwellings that have a design life of over 60 years.
Type of dwelling

Houses, bungalows, flats, maisonettes and bedsits are types of accommodation used in the Census but no clear definition of these is provided. Houses include single storey bungalows. A flat is very difficult to define and there are many types. However, the Building Regulations 2000 (SI 2000 no.2531) give the following definition:

   * ‘A flat is a separate and self-contained premises constructed or adapted for use for residential purposes and forming part of a building from some other part of which it is divided horizontally.’

In other words, flats have to be contained within a dwelling with at least two storeys. Flats include maisonettes; maisonettes are flats containing more than one storey.

Many thanks waffle for providing this information it is appreciated. If only more would share such stuff this place would be much the better for it.

Edit to add.
I remebered the Unique Property Reference Number getting n outing on goodf. Once I got past the enormous advert now on the top of all goodf forum pages I found it

http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=104875

is the unique identifier for every addressable location in Great Britain. It is created by local authorities who have the statutory authority to name and number every street and property and Ordnance Survey who identify objects on the landscape which may otherwise not attract an address. It provides a comprehensive, complete and consistent identifier throughout a property's life cycle – from planning permission or street naming through to demolition

Clicking the link provided I found myself here.https://www.geoplace.co.uk/addresses/uprn. The pretty picture sums it up perfectly. Stock control central.

Good effort but don't get too hung up on Dwelling, did I say the Supreme Court agree with me on the meaning of Dwelling ?

I Think you need to re-read what I typed there exactly, my statement was with implicit regard to another term I omitted to mention, but in general the point is when it comes to a statutory definition, it is the one the Supreme Court cite by case that matters.

I think iamani has got the gist of it, had you followed the clues correctly, you would find the evidence that Council Tax only applies to commercial dwellings, not ones for living in only, and in logical consequence you would have discovered how and why the Courts and Councils ignore that fact and get you on a separate and more primary form of law, which they never disclose to you, probably because only a few at the top of the system are aware of the true nature of how the legal system and its courts actually operate...that is on bankruptcy in the public and the value of the ESTATES of the man in the private acting as surety for their charge back (perpetual slavery), the administrative personnel and lower judges on the at law side don't need to know as that side is all pre-scripted (even if they do deviate from it).

Like I said good try but you read what you wanted to see, and not what is being stated, so your still way off from finding the clue, that validates my point and leads you to the correct argument and the correct jurisdiction...

That is all from me guys, as I am not stopping. for those with the right attitude good luck.

Ferry Man wrote:Good effort but don't get too hung up on Dwelling, did I say the Supreme Court agree with me on the meaning of Dwelling ?

I Think you need to re-read what I typed there exactly, my statement was with implicit regard to another term I omitted to mention, but in general the point is when it comes to a statutory definition, it is the one the Supreme Court cite by case that matters.

I think iamani has got the gist of it, had you followed the clues correctly, you would find the evidence that Council Tax only applies to commercial dwellings, not ones for living in only, and in logical consequence you would have discovered how and why the Courts and Councils ignore that fact and get you on a separate and more primary form of law, which they never disclose to you, probably because only a few at the top of the system are aware of the true nature of how the legal system and its courts actually operate...that is on bankruptcy in the public and the value of the ESTATES of the man in the private acting as surety for their charge back (perpetual slavery), the administrative personnel and lower judges on the at law side don't need to know as that side is all pre-scripted (even if they do deviate from it).

Like I said good try but you read what you wanted to see, and not what is being stated, so your still way off from finding the clue, that validates my point and leads you to the correct argument and the correct jurisdiction...

That is all from me guys, as I am not stopping. for those with the right attitude good luck.  

Thus proving what I said all along I am not sufficiently skilled in the arts you mention to comprehend but if the 'good effort' is aimed at me along with the other contributors then thank you.
However even this 'dumb blonde' figured out that Council Tax only applies to commercial not domestic a long while ago after listening to some podcast on lawfulrebellion and yes actually reading the Act, although I didn't pick up on the commercial dwelling connection. I must have heard dwelling and saw property so too speak.
The stumbling block is figuring out how the Council can ignore this and instead shaft the hell out of the population by a completely different bit of legislation.
This stumbling block endures as you have now left the building.
Hindsight is wonderful but had you started with "council tax is only applies commercial dwellings and here's why" or some such there would have been better game in play at least from my perspective. Detective I am not so all I can do is await the return of iamani to see if he is going to reveal what he and you reckon he has grasped from the clues I still cannot see.

I will repeat my sole bit of knowledge as regards Council Tax is without being given a legal name backed by signature the Council has nothing to lay its charge against. The legal name is the person which feature front and centre in all the Acts I have had a look at.

Edit to add this bit

that is on bankruptcy in the public and the value of the ESTATES of the man in the private acting as surety for their charge back (perpetual slavery),

Is that a clue?
Writing to myself as you have left but it looks for all the world like a clue, or maybe I am still way off.
The public is bankrupt the private isn't so to keep the public bankruptcy hidden the private is kept in perpetual slavery never realising they are private and not bankrupt and the system perpetuates ad infinitum because those who have figured it out and use that knowledge to their advantage don't want the masses knowing and those born on the right side of the blanket know it from birth so they don't want the masses knowing and we get perpetual ignroance perpetual slavery perpetual 'just this side of misery so they don't notice the slavery' as the day to day norm. What a world.

Hi CT fans

Check this out (google): Local Government Finance Act 1992 - CLARIFICATION &template letter

It's on council tax scam blogspot. One day i'll learn how to post links and quotes and such.....

Cheers!

This place is feeling like a ghost town with more 'active moderators' (the pale blue boled avatars for those like me who didn't realise) than active members who are not moderators. Still onwards and upwards wherever possible and unlike some in these parts who think they have all the answers and will not share ever ever share anything, no names no pack drill one might get comments edited, I rather like sharing silly rhough the findings may be to most.
A couple of things noticed led by ferry mans parting gift of commercial dwellings a term I hadn't come across before. Dwellings yes, commercial property yes but commercial dwellings no.

I found this http://www.pugh-auctions.com/Lot/Manchester/20170425/056 which has this in the sales blurb.

The land is situated to the rear of residential and commercial dwellings and can be accessed from Lees Road (A670) via Nield Street

So for estate agents at least they seem to be completely at ease with the existence of residential dwellings as being a different entity to a commercial dwelling. So Ferry Man is correct in regards to they being different.
Then there is this https://www.kingspanenviro.com/kingspan-klargester-wastewater

Septic tanks are a traditional solution to sewage disposal needs for domestic and commercial dwellings without access to mains drainage.

This time they are called domestic dwellings (not residential as above) and commercial dwellings. Once again the two marked out as distinctly different by a company. Fair to assume the world of commerce is well aware they are different.
And to round this out I found this http://www.lentinsmith.co.uk/holiday_let_legislation.php

The EPC was introduced in 2008 and is currently a legal requirement for residential and commercial dwellings being bought, sold or rented.

Thus linking commerical dwellings with legislation.

Then I found this https://www.taxation.co.uk/Articles/2017/02/07/335989/vat-rules-land-and-buildings which contains this.

There is not scope here to address all aspects of land and buildings, so I will focus on the VAT treatment of supplies of dwellings and commercial properties, which are topical in the exam.

First, we must go back to some basics. The outright sale of a building or the grant of a lease on one can be a zero-rated, standard-rated or an exempt supply. The VAT treatment depends on the type of building and the type of supply:
On the type of building, we must determine whether it is a commercial property or a dwelling.
On the type of supply, we must distinguish between a sale of the freehold or the grant of a lease.

The type of building is either a commercial property or a dwelling. It doesn't say domestic and it doesn't say residential so clearly there is commercial property and there is commercial dwelling. Or am I reading things wrong again as I have been told a couple of times back up this thread?

I then found this http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20150728221607tf_/http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/approveddocuments/partb/faqs/other

Building Regulations Fire Safety (Part B)- Buildings other than Dwelling Houses FAQ's

Thus dwelling houses (a new take on dwelling at least as far as this comment goes) are singled out as being different to everything else. A building other than a dwelling house has to be a commercial building or is it commercial property or commercial dwelling?
Not expecting an answer from anyone and I won;t be filling in any more questionaires simply writing thoughts down.
A search of legislation.gov.uk didn't bring up any uses of the phrase commercial dwelling. Interesting, but I did find this which I also find interesting.
https://www.basingstoke.gov.uk/rte.aspx?id=636

This duty does not apply to supplies to single non-commercial dwellings unless a risk assessment is requested.

To end here is something from New Zealand which may or may not be relevant to anything I honestly don't know. http://taxpolicy.ird.govt.nz/publications/2012-ip-gst-issues/chapter-6

Chapter 6 - "Dwelling" and "commercial dwelling" definitions
Rest homes and retirement villages
6.1 The definitions of “dwelling” and “commercial dwelling” were amended with effect from 1 April 2011. The purpose of these changes was to provide clarity in the boundary between these definitions. This was achieved by narrowing the definition of “dwelling” and updating the types of accommodation that should be treated as “commercial dwellings”

Hi all

Honey oil - whoa there! Back it up just a little, you found a new clue with your own research and skated past it.

The quote that begins "there is not scope here..." mentions an 'exemption' depending on whether it's commercial or domestic, then suggests that the difference might be due to whether the 'property' was sold under 'freehold' or 'lease'. Now i realise this is re:VAT rather than CT but.... Just sayin'.....

Hopefully at some point the bruise i appear to have inflicted on your ego will fade, and you will realise i was/am trying to help you.

Also, if you compare the LGA 1992 you posted with the one in the 'link' in my last post you will find the 'change of word without change of meaning' that FM mentioned was 'interesting'. That'll give you another meaning of 'dwelling' that you may not yet have seen.

Impressive tenacity, btw.

Cheers!

Hi all

Has anyone noticed the biblical connection yet? That'll give another idea for the meaning of dwelling, or even better - individual dwelling.

Is anybody focusing on the exemptions? eg

72 c) does not include a caravan which is not a person's sole or main residence.

That exemption is in plain sight. Now i'll have to get round to checking the given definition of caravan.... just in case....

Anybody found a concrete definition of 'land' or 'lands'?

Did you know 'diplomats' are exempt (class V)? Is it possible for you to become a 'diplomat'?

Does anyone know what i mean when i say you will only beat CT as part of a journey of self-realisation?

To be honest, CT doesn't and hasn't affected me due to my living arrangements, so it's not a priority in my studies. i'm doing this for fun and Fu.N. and intellectual stimulation (i don't watch TV and i don't get out much....) so forgive me if it seems i'm not taking it seriously. Having said that, i would love to see everybody free of it so i'm posting anything that seems 'interesting'.

Cheers!

iamani wrote:Hi CT fans

Check this out (google):  Local Government Finance Act 1992  -  CLARIFICATION &template letter

It's on council tax scam blogspot. One day i'll learn how to post links and quotes and such.....

Cheers!

Hi iamani, is this the link you wanted?

https://council-tax-scam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/local-government-finance-act-1992.html

Regards

LS

Hi LionsShare

You-reka! That's the one, thank you very much!

i don't know if it's noticeable but i'm really getting obsessed with this.....

Cheers!

iamani wrote:Hi LionsShare

You-reka! That's the one, thank you very much!

i don't know if it's noticeable but i'm really getting obsessed with this.....

Cheers!

glad you are, as have been following this thread & the other who requested Ctax help. I want to know as much as I can, would love to attack ctax & get rid as soon as, however after seeing what happened to "jimmy" off the old site dont want to land myself in shit & lose everything I have - not too much either!

To post a link hi-lite the contents of the address bar -ctrl-c (copy) then ctrl-v (paste) into text - done!

Hi all

Has anybody counted how many ways T.H.E.Y. can classify your home as 'commercial'?

LionsShare - unfortunately i don't own a computer. All my tinterweb stuff is done on a smart (-er than me) phone. While i'm confident the phone can do it, i'm afraid i am the limiting factor in this instance. i do appreciate the thoughtful offer though, thanks.

.....and i think Jimmy is great, hope he's doing OK. (but i know what you mean)

Cheers!

This one is simply observation of the physical world not a bit of paper in sight, for a change. I sat for a while yesterday pondering how, if at all, a commercial dwelling is physically different from a domestic dwelling. Round our way there is a Thai takeaway two doors in on a terraced street. Either side of it there are what appear to be domestic dwellings as in they are not selling anything have no advertising on them and have curtains up.
The takeaway by contrast has a curtainless window and a signboard over the window so obviously different in a physical sense.
Looking up the upper story's  they look exactly the same in all three dwellings. So above they look alike at ground level two look alike and one looks different. A building used for commerce it seems is easy to spot if it is doing real world selling.
Sitting there looking at these three connected but different buildings I pondered how the council couldn't notice when it seems so obvious. Do their people not come and look for themselves? Do they not use the takeaway and realise it is different to the buildings either side? Are they blind?
The answer not forthcoming I carried on peering at these buildings and then it dawned. The council doesn't come and look it sends letters!
An aha! moment.
All three buildings have a letter box central in their doors. In fact they all line up in a row just as the doors do. This is the way the council does business by letter, why this wasn't obvious from the instant I began looking at these buildings I don't know. Never mind there it is.
The letter boxes are all the same they do not differ in anyway not even colour they are all white. So to the council they must all be either commercial dwellings or  all domestic dwellings. The takeway is obviously a commercial dwelling to the eyes as it sells hot food to take away. A glance in the window confirms this to be the case whilst the curtains are a clear indicator that physically the other two buildings are non commerical dwellings but to the council sending letters through the letterbox?
Hard to tell.

Sallinae on goodf said she removed her letterbox and that was it all post stopped arriving. Cannot recall anyone else removing theirs. This would certainly scupper the councils attempts to contact the mask it needs to force its charges against although it would appear everything as in everything that is sent out in letter form, or parcel form for that matter, never gets near the letterbox and must be held or sent back to the sender by Royal Mail.
Presumably bins don't get emptied and what of the utilities we are told we cannot live without?
Seems drastic yet remarkably effective.
Still it is undeiable all council does is send letters to dwellings and with no letterbox for them to be posted through the dwelling is no longer 'contactable' nor is the mask (person) the council will hold in its records. In effect I guess the person is as good as dead as there is no way to reach it. And the commercial dwelling is equally unreachable. Could it be that the only difference between a domestic or residential dwelling and a commercial dwelling is simpy the lack of a letterbox?
I do rather favour simplicity which is probably why I cannot comprehend the Acts correctly. Still no-one with the correct comprehension skills has come forward out of this forum yet so maybe the educated one hasn't joined yet.

Hi all

Honeyaisle - still giving me the cold-shoulder? Good for you....

Excellent post by the way, you're almost there - and largely by your own efforts. You do realise if you had been more considerate of the OP's stated position you might have the whole thing by now?

Yes, the letterbox makes your home a commercial dwelling - but it's not the only thing. Re-read the questionnaire you so graciously completed to find some indication as to where to look next - you should be staring to understand why i asked those questions.

A 'human' will never beat CT.....

Cheers!

Why is everyone getting hung up on dead ends?

Commercial, domestic, what is the difference here? actually nothing as it is meaningless words as many are finding out, look at it logically for a moment, the birth (berth) certificate gives everyone a commercial side, you pay a council a fee (council tax) for a service, paying for a service is commerce.
Where are commercial accounts, bills, and demands sent too? a commercial address.

Hi assassin

i respect your opinion - why do you think these are dead ends and not valid areas of research?

Cheers!

Because people are arguing apples and pears and many of us have seen exactly the same thing for many years, and nothing changes.

Hi assassin

Well, i KNOW you're not suggesting we should stop trying. What would you suggest?

Cheers!

I would suggest everyone gets on the same page and ignores semantics, with a concerted from everyone in one direction we could make more headway.

Hi assassin

i agree it would be beneficial to be on the same page, but semantics and pedantry seem to be 'de jour' when it comes to legislation so we are stuck with it unfortunately.

You're right about pulling in one direction though. As we're discussing CT, do you have an idea of a particular direction we could all pull in that might be more productive?

Cheers!

Just thought I would throw this in
Has anyone considered the Glossa /Justinian deception route ?
My CT bills contain a lot of DOG-LATIN Why ?


https://youtu.be/S3va6p6q6Zc

Another thing that came to me when perusing those three doors n letterboxes they were all individually identifiable. The number on them ran consecutively and on one was the street name. The similarity with the system used in prison to identify individual cells is clear. This brought to mind waffle's comment

The term "dwelling" is used for census stock purpose.

The number and street name are simply another form of person, at least that is how it feels to me. It was chilling to sit there and realise how easily I was fooled into seeing street name and house number as innocuous little things that are taken for granted as 'just the way it is'. Seems millions have been just as easily fooled as all seem to take them for granted. Self policing slaves is a term I have come across a few time in wandering and it is an accurate description of each one of us.

assassin wrote:I would suggest everyone gets on the same page and ignores semantics, with a concerted from everyone in one direction we could make more headway.

Sailing is much more effective than rowing. One can even tack against the direction of the wind and still get to the destination!

I am sailing, I am sailing, stormy waters, or maybe tacking. Sorry can't get the song out of my head.
'People' who claim to be government give themselves permission to tax- The Act.
This verbal permission is put into written permission by compiling words and numbers into something given the title of Act. This is an illusion as the real Act was spoken not written.
The written words Act is the rulebook used to enforce the Act upon the person.
The 'people' who claim to be government give themselves permission to use force against the person - The Act.
The written words are forcibly used against the person. The person on which the Act is forced is the government.
The creator of the liability, the registrar of the liability, the liability holder, the liability owner, the liability enforcer, the liability executor, the liability account creator, the liability account holder, the liability account enforcer, the liability account executor is the government/council.
The address creator, the address registrar, the address holder, the address executor is the government/council.

Evidence of a dwelling.
The use of a government/council created, owned, registered, held address for any purpose. The use of a letterbox to accept the delivery of mail.

Evidence of a dwelling as commercial.
The use of a government/council created.owned, registered, held address to engage in commerce aka buying and selling through the use of the letterbox/delivery point.

Evidence of a dwelling as non-commercial.
No use of a government/council created, owned, registered, held address. The non existence of a letterbox/delivery point.

Commerce possible without the use of address or letterbox.
Cash in hand. Barter. Reciprocal gifting. A mutually agreed, by buyer and seller currency.

Why does the government/council only ask for personal details?
It is bound by unbreakable legislation to asking not demanding. It is important for the fish to hang itself on the hook voluntarily, I know not why.

Hi daveiron

Thanks for the vid - i'm subscribed to Glossa Channel but it didn't show in my feed.

In theory the Glossa would be valid to invalidate the CT. Saw a good comment (several actually) under the vid. When you get your bill ask them (via posh post - naturally!) if it is all written in one language. Insist on the response being signed..... see what happens!

I'd quite forgotten about the Glossa, though i have used it for summat.

Cheers!

Hi iamani,

The glossa channel has a sister channel = Justinian Deception channel .In case you were not aware.